Hebrew Cosmology

Papias · Dec 6, 2010

Cal wrote:

The firmament is actually defined in Genesis chapter 1.

Gen. 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Cal, also note that even the verse you cited shows that it's a hard dome. The hebrew word used literally means "beaten bowl" (as in beaten metal). In addition the verses that Mallon mentioned that confirm a hard dome is said, your verse all by itself would establish that.

Papias

P.S. How to get the stars, sun and moon into where the birds fly, if you are taking this literally? Maybe the by "birds" it means "alien spaceships"? Yes, joking. It's clearly not a literal description.

granpa · Dec 6, 2010

the firmament of heaven is our atmospheric shield that protects us from the meteorites that rain down on us

genesis was not originally written in hebrew so dont make too much of the hebrew word associations

Also by the time it was translated into hebrew quite a bit of knowledge about the universe had been lost so some parts were mis-translated.

marktheblake · Dec 6, 2010

To be dogmatic about what the firmament is exactly appears to be somewhat foolish in my mind, because there is no way really to know, and scholars are not in agreement at all. Plus It leaves it way open to critics to argue against it, and think they have proven genesis false.

By all means present possibilities and analyse the implications, but remain open to alternate possibilities as well.

Mallon · Dec 6, 2010

Calminian said:
And I think you're so attached to the myth that the bible describes a solid firmament, you can't accept the most explicit passage in the bible describing the firmament. You're instead deferring to a vague vision in Ezekiel. I've always been amazed at why people do this.

I didn't just refer to Ezekiel. I also referred to Job, who straight out tells us that the firmament is hard. Even the word "firmament" itself literally refers to a hammered sheet of metal. Genesis and Malachai also tell us that the firmament has windows in it, through which the rain falls.
So no, I'm not attached to a myth. I'm attached to how the Bible actually describes the firmament.

Yet Genesis 1 says the firmament is the heavens (plural), where the clouds dwell, etc. Did the ancients believe clouds were embedded in a solid mass? Even a strict visual inference doesn't support this. There's actually nothing in scripture that implies heaven is solid. If you disagree, kindly post your passages. I'm curious how deeply you've researched this.

I just did post the relevant passages and you ignored them. See my last post.

BTW, if you don't think the firmament was literally interpreted as a solid dome in antiquity, consider the words of Martin Luther:

"Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters... It is likely that the stars are fastened to the firmament like globes of fire, to shed light at night... We Christians must be different from the philosophers in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding."

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Calminian said:
Total myth. The firmament is actually defined in Genesis chapter 1.

Gen. 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

This is the most explicit definition of the firmament we have in scripture. Quite simply, the firmament, that is, the word translated firmament or expanse, is actually the heavens (plural). Heaven is the name God gave it. Just as earth is the name God gave the dry land. There's no mystery to it at all. According to scripture, the firmament doesn't divide heaven and earth. It's not a barrier between us and heaven. Quite simply, it is heaven (if you take the text at face value).

We have very few examples of the word for firmament in scripture, a few in psalms, ezekiel and daniel. But we don't need many because we have a ton of data on word heaven, which is what God named the firmament of Genesis. It is where the sun, moon and stars are. It is where the clouds are. It is where the birds fly.

Don't forget Amos: 9:5-6

The Lord Yahweh of Sabaoth-
he touches the earth and it melts,
and all its inhabitants mourn;
it all heaves, like the nile
and subsides,like the river of Egypt.
He has built his high dwelling place in the heavens
and supported his vault on the earth;
he summons the waters of the sea
and pours them over the land.
Yahweh is his name.

Supplemented with II Cor 12

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.

Not material, yet compared characteristically to a vault.

juvenissun · Dec 6, 2010

granpa said:
the firmament of heaven is our atmospheric shield that protects us from the meteorites that rain down on us

genesis was not originally written in hebrew so dont make too much of the hebrew word associations

Could you elaborate that a little bit more? What language was used in the "original" Genesis? I always think it is Hebrew because Moses wrote it.

granpa · Dec 6, 2010

Its called the "Adamic language".
It wasnt Semitic but it was closely related.
According to Gen 11:1 it was a language with 'few words'.
(I suspect it was monosyllabic)
There are many linguistic clues in the text of Gen 1-2
(Many syllables are repeated over and over)
It is worth looking into.

Confusion of tongues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_language

Calminian · Dec 6, 2010

juvenissun said:
Could you elaborate that a little bit more? What language was used in the "original" Genesis? I always think it is Hebrew because Moses wrote it.

Moses wasn't alive during the events of Genesis, so he had to get them from somewhere. What's interesting is, Genesis is actually a compilation of books itself likely from several different authors. For instance we read this in Gen. 5,

Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.

Perhaps Adam or Able or Seth authored Gen. 1 - 4, someone else Gen. 5 and so on. There's really no way of knowing. But Moses compiled these stories, likely passed down over the years, and preserved on the ark.

Were the original Genesis books written in Hebrew? I tend to believe they were, but this is also impossible to prove. But for Moses to compile them, they had to be in a language he could read, I would think.

Calminian · Dec 6, 2010

Mallon said:
I didn't just refer to Ezekiel. I also referred to Job, who straight out tells us that the firmament is hard. Even the word "firmament" itself literally refers to a hammered sheet of metal. Genesis and Malachai also tell us that the firmament has windows in it, through which the rain falls.

I wish you'd quote your references. I'm quoting mine. If you quote them, we can talk about them. Otherwise you're asking your readers to just trust you.

And which portion of Job are you quoting? Before and after chapter 40? If you don't understand the significance of the question, you have a lot to learn about Job. Is this the same Job that God says lacked knowledge?

Mallon said:
So no, I'm not attached to a myth. I'm attached to how the Bible actually describes the firmament.

You mean heaven?? Or are you still in denial?

Mallon said:
I just did post the relevant passages and you ignored them. See my last post.

BTW, if you don't think the firmament was literally interpreted as a solid dome in antiquity, consider the words of Martin Luther:

And again, you're running from scripture and now quoting men thousands of years later. Solid domeists always do this. Something about scripture scares them to death.

Again, I wish I understood the mentality.

Assyrian · Dec 6, 2010

Greg1234 said:
Don't forget Amos: 9:5-6
The Lord Yahweh of Sabaoth-
he touches the earth and it melts,
and all its inhabitants mourn;
it all heaves, like the nile
and subsides,like the river of Egypt.
He has built his high dwelling place in the heavens
and supported his vault on the earth;
he summons the waters of the sea
and pours them over the land.
Yahweh is his name.

Supplemented with II Cor 12
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.

Not material, yet compared characteristically to a vault.

Amazing verse, thanks. It is a beautiful illustration of Hebrew cosmology. Not sure why a non material vault would need to be supported on the earth though.

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Assyrian said:
Amazing verse, thanks. It is a beautiful illustration of Hebrew cosmology. Not sure why a non material vault would need to be supported on the earth though.

His "vault" is described as his "high dwelling place". God is not in the sky. His dwelling place is in the heavens. Which heaven specifically. The last verse given makes a basic allusion. Further, donning the characteristics of a vault is justified.

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. (Luke 11:9)

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."(Matthew 16:19)

Your last sentence doesn't need to be explained.

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Calminian said:
You mean heaven?? Or are you still in denial?

More like refusal. Ignorant authors is a prediction of Darwinism as opposed to Created men, the race of man, and the corollary of such. Hence there is the belief that they were ignorant beastmen first, then you look for evidence for that belief. Any kind of merit awarded to the bible is like finding a "bunny rabbit in pre- Cambrian" rock. Its not going to be permitted. Hence, while deep exegesis may be employed in text, the Darwinist may run to his computer at the first sign of a speaking river. This is what they call exegesis and study.

Mallon · Dec 6, 2010

Calminian said:
I wish you'd quote your references. I'm quoting mine. If you quote them, we can talk about them. Otherwise you're asking your readers to just trust you.

Again, I did quote my references up front in my first reply to you. I'm sorry that you're ignoring them.
What does the Bible tell us about the firmament? Well, for one, we know that the literal meaning of the word "firmament" (raquia) is a hammered piece of metal. We know that it's "hard as a mirror cast of bronze" (Job 37:18). We know that it "sparkles like ice" (Ezekiel 1:22). We know that it has windows (e.g., Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12). We know that it forms a tent or canopy above the earth (Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 104:2, Amos 9:5-6). This imagery is the same imagery used by the other ANE cultures you mention in your post here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7514658-6/#post56245955
Therefore, I don't know how you can say "Oh, actually, the Bible doesn't describe the structure of the firmament at all" when it clearly does.

Assyrian · Dec 6, 2010

Greg1234 said:
His "vault" is described as his "high dwelling place". God is not in the sky. His dwelling place is in the heavens. Which heaven specifically. The last verse given makes a basic allusion. Further, donning the characteristics of a vault is justified.

So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. (Luke 11:9)

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."(Matthew 16:19)

The verse doesn't say the heavens 'dons the characteristics of a vault' it says it has a vault that is supported on the earth. Nor does it limit the heavens to the vault so I don't see you problem about God being in the sky, anyway I though God was everywhere. The passage is very clear about the heavens having a vault supported on the earth. Would that be the firmament then?

]Your last sentence doesn't need to be explained.

That's handy.

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Assyrian said:
[/indent]The verse doesn't say the heavens 'dons the characteristics of a vault' it says it has a vault that is supported on the earth.

It is the "vault", not "has a vault". And the characteristics as explained with verses doesnt need to be explained.

Assyrian · Dec 6, 2010

Greg1234 said:
It is the "vault", not "has a vault". And the characteristics as explained with verses doesnt need to be explained.

There is still a vault there supported on the earth, but if you can't explain your views that is fine. Thanks again for the verse though.

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Assyrian said:
There is still a vault there supported on the earth, but if you can't explain your views that is fine. Thanks again for the verse though.

"God's dwelling place" is called "heaven". And referred to as a "vault". Heaven does not "have a vault" but is the "vault". Hence the question of which heaven, and specification as noted earlier. Allusions to entry into a "vault" were also given in verses.

Assyrian · Dec 6, 2010

Greg1234 said:
"God's dwelling place" is called "heaven". And referred to as a "vault". Heaven does not "have a vault" but is the "vault". Hence the question of which heaven, and specification as noted earlier. Allusions to entry into a "vault" were also given in verses.

Ah I get it, you think vault means a safe, a bank vault. That's why you were talking about keys. I was wondering why you would quote such a wonderful illustration of ANE cosmology. Bank vault is another meaning of the word vault, but it is not how it is being used by translators here, where vault means an arch, a domed roof (burial vaults got their name from the vaulted roofs). So for example, Strong's dictionary says arch instead of vault.

You can see this in the way some other bibles phrase it
NASB And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth.
Good News and over the earth he puts the dome of the sky.
BBE basing his arch on the earth.

Amos is saying the upper chamber of God dwelling are in the heavens above a vault, an arched dome that is supported on the earth.

Greg1234 · Dec 6, 2010

Assyrian said:
Ah I get it, you think vault means a safe, a bank vault. That's why you were talking about keys. I was wondering why you would quote such a wonderful illustration of ANE cosmology. Bank vault is another meaning of the word vault, but it is not how it is being used by translators here, where vault means an arch, a domed roof (burial vaults got their name from the vaulted roofs). So for example, Strong's dictionary says arch instead of vault.

You can see this in the way some other bibles phrase it
NASB And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth.
Good News and over the earth he puts the dome of the sky.
BBE basing his arch on the earth.

Amos is saying the upper chamber of God dwelling are in the heavens above a vault, an arched dome that is supported on the earth.

Showing where and why "vault" would be used with corresponding verses where it has been alluded to as such. The word translated is "agudda" which means "band"(noun and verb app) or "troop". Amos 9:6 Hebrew Texts and Analysis. Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: 92. aguddah. The vulgate also uses "bundle"."qui aedificat in caelo ascensionem suam et fasciculum suum super terram fundavit qui vocat aquas maris et effundit eas super faciem terrae Dominus nomen eius"

Calminian · Dec 6, 2010

Mallon said:
Again, I did quote my references up front in my first reply to you. I'm sorry that you're ignoring them.

No I mean quote them, like I'm doing. Don't just post a reference. And you've only posted 2 references. What I'm challenging you to do is actually quote verses and make your case from the words of the text. Quoting references looks impressive, but is actually deceptive if they don't make your case. People who don't know what they're talking about always post references, hoping no one will actually check them out.

Mallon said:
What does the Bible tell us about the firmament? Well, for one, we know that the literal meaning of the word "firmament" (raquia) is a hammered piece of metal.

So instead of quoting the Bible to make your case you again refer to human references thousands of years after Genesis plainly tells us what the raquia was, shamayim! (the heavens)

Mallon said:
We know that it's "hard as a mirror cast of bronze" (Job 37:18).

And again, your job references is prior to Job 38. You do realize what that means, right? Here's what God said immediately after this statement by Job (which you refuse to quote).

Job 38:2 “Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

Mallon said:
We know that it "sparkles like ice" (Ezekiel 1:22).

The passage says no such thing. It's actually a vision, with a lot of symbolism, and yet still implies no such thing. And yet again, you are afraid to actually quote your proof text. I can understand why. It's quite an embarrassing passage to make a case from.

And again you're ignoring the most explicit passage we have on the nature of the firmament.

And God called the firmament Heaven.

Mallon said:
We know that it has windows (e.g., Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12).

Yes and what does scripture say these windows are? Does is say they are holes in a solid mass? Please site the reference. Or does the text say windows are actually clouds? All throughout scripture clouds are associated with rain.

Clouds are also called doors.
Psa. 78:23 Yet He had commanded the clouds above, And opened the doors of heaven,

If this psalmist called clouds doors, why would you assume the Genesis author wasn't using the same symbolism actually calling clouds windows?

BTW, do you want to deal with the most explicit passage in scripture on the firmament? You're not going to touch that one with a 10' pole are you?

And God called the firmament Heaven.

Mallon said:
We know that it forms a tent or canopy above the earth (Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 104:2, Amos 9:5-6).

You refrained from quoting these verses also. Please quote where they say the sky is a solid canopy? Because there is a atmospheric canopy around the earth, which is very visible to the naked eye.

Thank you for exposing this myth. Do you have more to add?

I have a final passage to leave with you.

And God called the firmament Heaven.

Hebrew Cosmology

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