Heaven or Hell...?

SkyWriting said:

You said you had trouble communicating with people.
It might not be their fault.

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Keep trying........ Still falls on you to do some of your own work...

On the aspect of free will, I think its possible that God created a million forms of our reality, a multiple universe if you will, and our souls simply pass between the realities as we live out our lives.

As for hell, I think it a very real place. What it is? Hard to say. I always kinda chuckle though at my childish or foolish ways and say "well, I guess God will dip me in hell for that one..." ive heard that souls might be purified by dipping them in hell prior to entrance into heaven...yup, far fetched, but has anyone ever heard that before? If so, where does it come from?

steppinrazor said:

On the aspect of free will, I think its possible that God created a million forms of our reality, a multiple universe if you will, and our souls simply pass between the realities as we live out our lives.

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Interesting idea...

steppinrazor said:

As for hell, I think it a very real place. What it is? Hard to say. I always kinda chuckle though at my childish or foolish ways and say "well, I guess God will dip me in hell for that one..." ive heard that souls might be purified by dipping them in hell prior to entrance into heaven...yup, far fetched, but has anyone ever heard that before? If so, where does it come from?

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Never heard that before. What would the purpose of that be? We are not purified by being "dipped" in hell...

We are purified, here on earth, by the washing of the blood of the Lamb... Christ's work on the cross washes us clean. There is no need for "dipping". Nor any biblical support.

Neogaia777 said:

I know this post is kind of long, but please take the time to read the whole thing as it's all important, or don't bother commenting please, K...
........
Anyway, I may add more to this later or more thoroughly expound on some of these thoughts a little bit later on, but, for now, "there it is", I guess, taken all in all for what it is, etc...

God Bless!

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There is a flaw to your eternal repeat concept.
There is a defined development in a human soul when they become an unchangeable hard hearted entity.
It does not matter how many times they live or was given opportunity, they would still choose the same result. I have met too many like this, who I expected to show interest in Jesus when they came to face death, but would rather just continue their own perspectives, as if they defined reality.

God gives us enough choice so that the eternal consequence of our hearts comes to its conclusion. In a sense there is no greater significance, whether we can see the value of service and sacrifice over selfishness and self indulgence, giving love at the cost of pain and loss, instead of sticking to ones own achievements at the cost of others.

Jesus summarised this as recorded by Mark

Mark 10:43-45
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many

I've contemplated the idea that our current existence is hell......People weep and go through pain and suffering here.....There is only mention of the creations of heavens and an earth....Death and the earth is cast into the rays of the fires of the sun, which so happens to be able to kill you in some areas if left exposed for some time.......The thought of remaining here and even being reborn here can be hell, especially if you arent living in favorable conditions.......If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a better existence which would make it less likely that you would search for and ultimately find one......etc.

Either way....the goal would still be to find and enter the kingdom of heaven. I Just so happen to find the notion that God came to save us from out of hell, more Good news, than the idea that He came to give few an option to make it to heaven, or burn forever....both options being places that He created.

RaymondG said:

I've contemplated the idea that our current existence is hell......People weep and go through pain and suffering here.....There is only mention of the creations of heavens and an earth....Death and the earth is cast into the rays of the fires of the sun, which so happens to be able to kill you in some areas if left exposed for some time.......The thought of remaining here and even being reborn here can be hell, especially if you arent living in favorable conditions.......If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a better existence which would make it less likely that you would search for and ultimately find one......etc.

Either way....the goal would still be to find and enter the kingdom of heaven. I Just so happen to find the notion that God came to save us from out of hell, more Good news, than the idea that He came to give few an option to make it to heaven, or burn forever....both options being places that He created.

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Very interesting concepts.

One thing however.... Rich people are not exempt to understanding that things can be better.

Money does not end this "hell" on earth. Many very wealthy people commit suicide...

Money can by stuff... it can end that worry about things that the common folk worry about.. like "how will I fix my car"... "how will I make the next mortgage payment"... "how will my kids get a good education".. Money can remove some of the stress..

But, the rich have their own problems. Money doesn't mean you won't be lonely, taken for granted, the target of thieves, taken advantage of... The list goes on.

We all walk this earth and face our own seasons of strife and hardship. .money or no money...

The only release is when we enter into paradise with our creator.

JacksBratt said:

Very interesting concepts.

One thing however.... Rich people are not exempt to understanding that things can be better.

Money does not end this "hell" on earth. Many very wealthy people commit suicide...

Money can by stuff... it can end that worry about things that the common folk worry about.. like "how will I fix my car"... "how will I make the next mortgage payment"... "how will my kids get a good education".. Money can remove some of the stress..

But, the rich have their own problems. Money doesn't mean you won't be lonely, taken for granted, the target of thieves, taken advantage of... The list goes on.

We all walk this earth and face our own seasons of strife and hardship. .money or no money...

The only release is when we enter into paradise with our creator.

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I gave no opinions on the rich.....was just picking random passages from the bible and pointing out how they could fit in with the things I said I've contemplated. "rich man and the eye of the needle," "Death and hell cast into the fire" "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...."

None of the passages were of any greater importance to my argument....Just wanted to pick passages that people would know without having to look up.

If you would like to know my thoughts on the rich, you can ask and I can share......but I have not given any opinion of us, thus far.

RaymondG said:

I gave no opinions on the rich.....was just picking random passages from the bible and pointing out how they could fit in with the things I said I've contemplated. "rich man and the eye of the needle," "Death and hell cast into the fire" "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...."

None of the passages were of any greater importance to my argument....Just wanted to pick passages that people would know without having to look up.

If you would like to know my thoughts on the rich, you can ask and I can share......but I have not given any opinion of us, thus far.

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I was only commenting on your statement where you said:

"If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a better existence"

Which, I disagree with. Sorry that I was a bit wordy and my point was lost.

JacksBratt said:

I was only commenting on your statement where you said:

"If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a better existence"

Which, I disagree with. Sorry that I was a bit wordy and my point was lost.

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I actually thought the "death and hell being cast into the rays of the sun" would be a harder analogy to get by.... But we are extra sensitive about our riches.

It may help to point out that I do not view the verse as talking about money. So discussions about the affairs of people you believe to be financially rich, would not apply......although, i believe, it would to most readers.

JacksBratt said:

I was only commenting on your statement where you said:

"If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a better existence"

Which, I disagree with. Sorry that I was a bit wordy and my point was lost.

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You know, some people are so poor that all they have is their money....

steppinrazor said:

You know, some people are so poor that all they have is their money....

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You dis agree, as well, THat one who lives in a mansion would have a harder time imagining a better existence than one who is materially poor? Note the words "Harder time" it very different from "Impossible to"

Here I thought this was something everyone agreed on.

RaymondG said:

You dis agree, as well, THat one who lives in a mansion would have a harder time imagining a better existence than one who is materially poor? Note the words "Harder time" it very different from "Impossible to"

Here I thought this was something everyone agreed on.

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Rich people live in a hell of their own... Just different than those that have no money.

Let me ask... Who said "money cannot buy happiness"? A rich man... or a poor man?

We are to hate this world.... We are in this world, not of this world...

JacksBratt said:

Rich people live in a hell of their own... Just different than those that have no money.

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Does this mean that all rich people have just as easy a time imagining greater material life than poor people? You seem to be arguing that there cannot be one case inwhich a poor person can imagine a better existence easier than a rich person can.

This seems stange to argue against this possibility.....or any possibility really....for one must know that minds of all, to be able to exclude any thought from all.....

JacksBratt said:

Let me ask... Who said "money cannot buy happiness"? A rich man... or a poor man?

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Most likely the same as the ones who say Education means nothing.......The ones without it.
I heard one say "Money aint everything, Not having it is."

Not sure what it is that has gotten you so worked up.....My post was not about money.....yet this is what you pulled out of it....

JacksBratt said:

We are to hate this world.... We are in this world, not of this world...

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Who said to hate the world? Do you have a scripture stating to do such? And when you think this thought, are you thinking that we should hate the earth, trees and rocks?....Or the people in the world?

When Jesus states that the world hated HIm, Do you believe he was saying that the trees and rocks and soil hated Him....Or the people?

Who/what is it that you say we should hate?


Also, What is your interpretation of the Rich man and the eye of the needle?

RaymondG said:

Does this mean that all rich people have just as easy a time imagining greater material life than poor people?

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You didn't say "greater material life". You said "imagining a better existence.".

RaymondG said:

You seem to be arguing that there cannot be one case inwhich a poor person can imagine a better existence easier than a rich person can.

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I did not say that. I merely disagreed with your concept that rich people have a hard time imagining a better existence... I based this on the simple fact that the formula that wealth brings happiness... is false..

RaymondG said:

This seems stange to argue against this possibility.....or any possibility really....for one must know that minds of all, to be able to exclude any thought from all.....

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True... However, aren't you saying that you know the mind of the rich? And, that they cannot imagine a better existence... due to them being rich?

RaymondG said:

Most likely the same as the ones who say Education means nothing.......The ones without it.

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So, you think that someone without money stated that it cannot buy happiness?

I would argue that it could have been a rich person... they would know for sure.


But... that's just my view.

RaymondG said:

I heard one say "Money aint everything, Not having it is."

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OK..

RaymondG said:

Not sure what it is that has gotten you so worked up.....My post was not about money.....yet this is what you pulled out of it....

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I'm not all worked up about anything... I just wanted to point out that we look at the rich in a way that paints them as all happy and no problems... Life couldn't be any better... they must be in heaven.

Which... is not true.

RaymondG said:

Who said to hate the world? Do you have a scripture stating to do such? And when you think this thought, are you thinking that we should hate the earth, trees and rocks?....Or the people in the world?

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I might have mixed it up with this scripture:

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Love not... I must have remembered someone saying "hate the world".

I think, to answer your question, it is to hate the ways of the world. Not the trees and rocks, rivers and all that which is beautiful.

RaymondG said:

When Jesus states that the world hated HIm, Do you believe he was saying that the trees and rocks and soil hated Him....Or the people?

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See above.

RaymondG said:

Who/what is it that you say we should hate?

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See above.

RaymondG said:

Also, What is your interpretation of the Rich man and the eye of the needle?

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The "eye of a needle" is pertaining to a small doorway or gate. It is difficult for a camel to go through this.. they would have to remove all their load (possessions) and get on their knees.....

It's difficult but not impossible...

As for the rich man, he too would have to be able to forget all his worldly wealth, which is his god... and get on his knees to the real God.

That's my take.

JacksBratt said:

You didn't say "greater material life". You said "imagining a better existence.".

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I think you need to circle back to what I originally stated. I think you have a thought in your mind that you are arguing with......not my words:

RaymondG said:

If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a.....

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You see? I didnt say the rich have a hard time imaging....Only that I feel it would be harder than the poor doing the same. Essentially, I was saying that the poor would have an easier time (not to be confused with easy time) imagining better, than the rich would. Why would you argue against this possibility? Why would you say, for sure, that there is no chance that a poor person would have an easier time imagining a better existence than a rich person would?

It only makes sense that you could be arguing with a thought not mentioned in my post.

JacksBratt said:

I did not say that. I merely disagreed with your concept that rich people have a hard time imagining a better existence... I based this on the simple fact that the formula that wealth brings happiness... is false..

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There....you have done it again...I states "harder time" not hard time. In my words, I left chance for the rich to still have an easy time imagining.....just not as easy as the poor. Maybe all rich do have just as easy a time imagining better as the poor do.... But why would one take so many post to fight against the idea that the poor can think of better a little easier than the rich?

JacksBratt said:

True... However, aren't you saying that you know the mind of the rich? And, that they cannot imagine a better existence... due to them being rich?

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Again, who said they cannot imagine it besides you? you are the only one who gave your opinion about it....not me... I was just talking about a scripture and relating it to the thought of hell on earth. You started about the material wealth.

let me qoute again what I said:

RaymondG said:

If you are rich, it would be harder to imagine a.....

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Not hard time imagining....or cannot imagine.....but ..: "it would be harder to imagine"

JacksBratt said:

So, you think that someone without money stated that it cannot buy happiness?

I would argue that it could have been a rich person... they would know for sure.


But... that's just my view.

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I would argue that a poor person who is happy and content, while looking at rich people in stress and turmoil, are just as capable of conjuring the thought "Money cannot by happiness" as a rich person could.. For they too would have experience and would know for sure.

JacksBratt said:

I'm not all worked up about anything... I just wanted to point out that we look at the rich in a way that paints them as all happy and no problems... Life couldn't be any better... they must be in heaven.

Which... is not true.

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My apologies if i've mistaken your feelings. It have been my experience that those who are worked up, tend to misquote words and argue against point, not made by the one they are arguing with....

again I gave no opinion on what I thought of the rich. However, I've heard people who are rich say that they "cant imagine heaven being better than this." Although, Im sure this couldnt be a 24/7/365 emotion. But again, why would one argue that the poor has no better chance imagining better existence than a rich person? But just know, that is it not me you argue against, for I have no stake in, and gave no opinion concerning the argument.

JacksBratt said:

I might have mixed it up with this scripture:

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Love not... I must have remembered someone saying "hate the world".

I think, to answer your question, it is to hate the ways of the world. Not the trees and rocks, rivers and all that which is beautiful.

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Yes this happens to me sometimes......I get so use to hearing things the wrong way....the wrong way becomes right........Then when I read it in the bible.....I think my bible was tampered with or maybe I got the wrong version.......yet it was only me....

JacksBratt said:

The "eye of a needle" is pertaining to a small doorway or gate. It is difficult for a camel to go through this.. they would have to remove all their load (possessions) and get on their knees.....

It's difficult but not impossible...

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Yes I've heard this story before......I've also heard that there is no such gateway and never has been.

Yet, it is a great analogy of humility, and can bring one to emotional states when pondered.

JacksBratt said:

As for the rich man, he too would have to be able to forget all his worldly wealth, which is his god... and get on his knees to the real God.

That's my take.

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I've heard this take as well..... I, as i said in earlier post, no longer see money and material wealth in this passage.

Think about it, When Jesus said it is easier (not to be confused with easy) for a camel....... The disciple stated "Who then can make it?" And they were distraught! It seems as though they felt that the "rich" man should have a better chance to make it in than the "poor" so when they saw that the rich man couldnt make it......they felt No One would be able to.

It is very unlikely that the ones who have been following Jesus for some time now, would think that the amount of money one has increase or decrease your chances of making it to heaven. Dont you think?