Grace

Nooj said:

Does God give every human enough grace to reach salvation?

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YES! And enough left over to act as Instruments of His Peace in helping to bring about the Salvation of others.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Not to sound like an echo but yes! He offers more than enough grace to every single person. It's up to each individual though to accept that gift or turn it away.

Hi Nooj, the body of Christ is split over this question with the Calvinists believing only those chosen before the foundation of the world are given "Irresistible Grace" which causes them to trust in Christ. And those who do not receive this "pre-faith" regeneration are unable to come to Christ.

But like the two posters before me, I think the Calvinist position is false doctrine, and most everyone is "able" to come to Christ. The Bible tells us of three types of people who are unable. First, from the parable of the sower, the first soil is so hardened that the gospel does not even penetrate just as if never presented. Next, we have those God does not allow to come, like Judas, and those unbelieving Jews from Romans chapter 11. The third group are those who are never exposed to the gospel. How can they believe if they have not heard? And how can they hear without a preacher. So those who have received God's grace have the ministry of reconciliation, bringing the gospel to others by word and example. We are to till the soil, cultivate, plant, and water to bring the grace of God to all men.

Nooj said:

Could Judas have come to God even without that grace, or was he damned the moment God took it away? If humans really have free-will, then surely you don't need grace to turn to God...otherwise Judas had no chance.

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Who ever said he was damned? Damned to what? Hell?

The version in Matthew says he repented.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Judas always gets the bad wrap with most Christians, saying that he went to hell, but the truth is we as people have no idea if he went to hell or heaven. We do know that he was human, just as us, was the son of perdition, the one willed to turn Jesus in to the officials, and according to the Gospel of Matthew, repented, threw the money down, and killed himself.

So, I do believe that grace was given to Judas, as it was to Peter, when he denied Christ 3 times. The difference was that because Satan had entered him, to become the son of perdition, Judas in the aftermath of things killed himself, I would assume because of the great separation between him, the disciples, and the Christ, whom he had just betrayed.

I also believe that there is an ultimate will from God, and this will has always been accomplished. Example, the Bible says that there is born the spirit of the anti-Christ, and that this spirit was already present in those times (refer to stories Simon the magician) This magician presented himself to be God, Christ actually, trying to deceive Nero.

The persecutions of Christians in early Christianity, the martyrdom. So, there are those that are actively against Christ in this world, and that was spoke of by John, and is still happening.

Are there a certain many that are willed to be involved of the spirit of the antiChrist. Most Christians will say that they make that choice by rejecting Christ, but that the door is open for them to come sit at the dinner table of God.

I agree. I do NOT think that it was predestined, as far as the anti Christ scene and today's age and time for an individual to be predestined to be against Christ, I believe it is a continual door until Armageddon.

Next, if one dies without asking God to forgive them, and turning from denying or persecuting Christ, even in today's age, will they go to Hell? I feel like that is the question you are getting to, or maybe will get to here with this line of thought.

That is a good question I think, and I would say that we will never know because we don't know the intimate thoughts between any man and God.

Hi Nooj, Could Judas have come to Jesus without that grace? Not sure what grace you are talking about. I am not sure when, but at some point in Judas' life he was chosen to fulfill a prophecy, the prophecy of betrayal. So from the time God chose to not allow him to come to Christ, until he betrayed Christ, he could not have come to Christ because God hardened his heart.

Yes, you are correct, in my opinion, the lost do not need an enabling supernatural modification in order to come to Jesus. But God can choose to disable that God given ability, and when scripture says God hardens hearts, that is what happens. If you look at John 6:64-65, you will read that Jesus said, No one can come to Me unless it has been granted (allowed) by the Father. Judas was not allowed. He had been chosen as one of the Twelve, but actually he was chosen to be the betrayer.

But lets not get carried away, Judas is the exception, chosen for a special purpose, but for the non-exceptions, most everyone, God does allow us to come to Jesus, i.e He does not prevent it. But most everyone still needs to be cultivated, planted and watered. That is our ministry of reconciliation.

P.S, I see I missed a point, did Judas have a chance? I think yes, but as he hardened himself, he because more and more suitable to be chosen as the betrayer, and then his future betrayal was sealed. I see one of the other posters postulates that Judas might have been saved after the betrayal. I suppose that is true, but there is no support in scripture to believe it. What I do believe is Judas will not be punished for any of his actions if they were compelled by Satan. So he will get perfect justice in the afterlife in my opinion.

Repented of his sins and put his trust in Jesus? Or was he just sorry his actions led to Jesus being condemned. Note also that Jesus says he lost not one in John 18:9, yet this idea excludes Judas (John 17:12) Therefore scripture suggests Judas was lost.

Repenting of sins is only one part of what has to be done.

Repent, believe, confess.

Sure he repented. He felt bad for what he had done. Lots of people repent every day, but that doesn't mean they are saved. Ask the drunk driver who kills someone in an accident and 99.999% of the time they feel bad and they repent (for a time). Islam has 5 times a day during which they pray towards Mecca and repent. Are they saved by their prayers of repentance?

Did Judas believe in his heart that Christ is the Son of God Almighty? Was he justified because he believed?

Did Judas confess with his mouth that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father except by Him?

No one knows for certain what happened to Judas but John 17:12 seems to say he (Judas) was lost just as God had intended to happen. It further clarifies by saying none of the others were lost.

Nooj said:

Does God give every human enough grace to reach salvation?

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I'm not sure its helpful to talk about grace as though it's a thing that can be quantified and measured. What's the SI unit for grace?

From a Jewish perspective he hasnt gone to hell, he is, in fact asleep in the dust until the day of resurrection. It is then that God will open the Books of Life and Death and only then will He judge the people of the earth.

I point this out because Judus was Jewish.

More than enough!

Remind: respond to the original poster only - do not debate other people's responses. A certain discipline is required of posters to make this forum work, even when you feel someone else has made a mistake.

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Agreeing with this reminder ~ only the OP is to be addressed in this forum.

ebia said:

Remind: respond to the original poster only - do not debate other people's responses. A certain discipline is required of posters to make this forum work, even when you feel someone else has made a mistake.

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Please do not debate amongst each other in the open forum, but take it to the PM system if you want further clarification from participating posters.



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