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Grace through the Sacraments

ricker

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Hi! I am a disillusioned ELCA'r who is serching for another denomination. I was raised an SDA amd have hardly any Lutheran relatives.

I visited a LCMS congregation for the first time a couple of weeks ago and was quite impressed by the service and especially the pastor's message. I plan to also visit the Baptist church many of my co-workers belong to, and the local Evangelical Covenant church where I know some of the members.

My big problem with the other churches (other than LCMS) may be with their belief the sacraments are merely ordinances and there is no real Presence. Could someone be kind enough to qoute the Bible verses that convey the idea that we recieve Grace through Baptism and Communion, and they are not just nice symbols? I am certainly not here for debate, just information I should probably already know. Thanks so much!
 

twin.spin

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WELS and ELS also believe and teach that we recieve Grace through Baptism and Communion.
The passages from the Bible are:

Matthew 26:26-28
Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
"Is mean is" Jesus said "is".... not "is like"
**********************************
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

the last part of 1 Peter 3:21 "It [baptism] saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" God makes very apparent that baptism is more than just symbolism...baptism saves.
 
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Tangible

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Hi ricker.

Probably the best advice I could give you would be to talk to the pastor of the LCMS church you visited. In the mean time, here are some links for you to check out.

Means of Grace? | The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Of the Means of Grace | The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod

Here are some links to sections from the Small Catechism with Explanation, which includes scripture verses that form the foundation of the particular points of doctrine.

http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pdf/catechism/sacraments.pdf
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pdf/catechism/baptism.pdf
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pdf/catechism/altar.pdf
 
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Tangible

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I thought this was relevant.

"The Lutheran doctrine of the consecration assumes that every celebration of the Lord’s Supper is an unfathomable miracle, just as the first Lord’s Supper was not, as the Reformed Church supposes, a parabolic action but also a miracle. Every Lord’s Supper that we celebrate is a miracle, no less than the miracles that Jesus did during His days on earth. The same is true, although in another way, of Baptism. As the preaching of the Lord was accompanied by His signs and wonders, so the proclamation of His church is accompanied by the sacraments. And as the deeds of Jesus were the dawn of the coming redemption (Luke 4:18ff.; Matthew ll:4ff.), so in Baptism and in the Lord’s Supper we are already given what belongs to the coming world. As often as the church gathers around the table of the Lord it is already the “day of the Lord,” i.e., the day of the Messiah (cf. Amos 5:18), the day of His return. This is the original meaning of Sunday as the “day of the Lord,” on which John (Revelation l:9ff.) in the Spirit could participate in the heavenly divine service, while the churches of Asia were gathered for the Lord’s Supper (cf. 3:20). Sunday is an anticipation of the parousia. It is this because on that day the Lord comes to His church in the Word and in the Sacrament of the Altar. For this reason the church greets Him before the consecration with “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.” The old Lutheran Church of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries still celebrated the divine service in this sense, which Article XXIV of the Augsburg Confession defends with the words: “We are unjustly accused of having abolished the Mass. Without boasting, it is manifest that the Mass is observed among us with greater devotion and more earnestness than among our opponents.” [Ap. XXIV.9] This honor is long past, since late orthodoxy neglected the liturgical instruction of the people, Pietism destroyed the Lutheran concept of sacrament, and rationalism nullified faith in miracles.

"Will the Lutheran Church recover the divine service to which its Confession bears witness? It cannot be a matter of repristinating an unrepeatable past but only of understanding anew the teaching of the Holy Scriptures about the Sacrament of the Altar as confessed in the Confession. Everything else will come of itself. It is an experience of the history of Lutheranism in the nineteenth century that generally, wherever Luther’s doctrine of the Real Presence is again understood and believed, hunger for the Sacrament of the Altar wakens afresh, and the liturgy is renewed. We see beginnings of such an experience even today. No liturgical movement can help our church unless it is inspired with Luther’s profound understanding of the consecration. In the consecration Jesus Christ is speaking and no one else. He speaks the Word of divine omnipotence: “This is My body,” “This is My blood,” and of divine love: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.” And this Word creates what it says, the true presence of His body and blood and the forgiveness of sins. So both forms in which the Gospel appears meet in the consecration, the spoken and the acted Gospel, the Word and the Sacrament. In this sense the consecration is the Gospel itself." - Hermann Sasse, Letters to Lutheran Pastors XXVI, 1952.
 
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ricker

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Thanks! There are no ELS congregations anywhere close to me, but there is one WELS congregation 11 miles from my house. Is there any real differences between WELS and LCMS?
 
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Studeclunker

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Thanks! There are no ELS congregations anywhere close to me, but there is one WELS congregation 11 miles from my house. Is there any real differences between WELS and LCMS?

Depending upon the LCMS congregation, there could be very little difference and lightyears. WELS is consistantly very conservative. LCMS is consistantly inconsistant.

As to your original question I might suggest looking up the Marburg Conferrence. Better yet, here's a few links:
Marburg Colloquy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
COLLOQUY OF MARBURG (M... - Online Information article about COLLOQUY OF MARBURG (M...

Now, the main difference that separates Lutherans from other protestants has not changed. This conferrence illustrates that difference, to wit: Real Presence.

It is said that Luther pulled the cloth back from the the conferrence table and wrote in chalk the quote from Christ, " This is my body. This is my blood," then he threw the table cloth back over it without any explanation. When he'd finally had enough he threw the cloth back, exposing the writing, and said, " we don't seem to have the same spirit," which was a rather stinging rejection of Zwinglii's attempt to heal the differences between the Protestant churches and Lutheran through the hand of brotherhood. Without agreement on the question of real presence, Luther wouldn't agree to fellowship.

Much of the New Testament was written in Greek. I believe most of the Gospels were as well. The point of argument that Luther stood on was the Greek word for 'is'. The form of 'is' used in the Greek meant the actual physical embodiment of. So, when Christ is quoted in saying, "This is my Body, broken for you... This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins..." He seemed to somehow mean that the elements of what we came to call Communion, are the embodiment of himself. His blood, His flesh, in and under the physical wine and bread. He wasn't just setting up a memorial rite. Philiips (the paraphraser) translated this to read (bolding mine):

(all quotes are from Matthew 26:26-28)

Paul, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, goes on to state that, "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgement upon himself..." or as the King James says it (bolding mine), "...Eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself..." Judgement, damnation, these are not light warnings from the great apostle. He obviously doesn't believe that 'Communion' is just a rite or memorial.

Phillips puts the same thing as follows, "He that eats and drinks carelessly is eating and drinking a judgement on himself, for he is blind to the presence of the Lord's body." Obviously, Phillips believed in real presence.

The problem arises when one can't seem to separate when the Lord was speaking metaphorically and literally. Often, this is from a lack of knowledge of the original languages of the Bible and the significance in their usage. there was a good reason why Paul and most of the other writers of the New Testament and Gospels used Greek. They wanted to make sure what they were saying to the new belivers was crystal clear. Hence, many of the errors we find in doctrine and theology can be traced to bad translations, ignorance of language, and poor application of scripture.
 
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Studeclunker

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Hi! I am a disillusioned ELCA'r who is serching for another denomination.

Excuse me Aibrean, with an opening like that (and the shenanigans that denomination has been up to), you need to ask why?

I would say your answer is that Ricker is not decieved or stupid. Elsewise he would be content with the Church of the Immaculate Deception.
 
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Aibrean

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ELCA is a synod, not a denomination. While we all wish it was completely separate, it's not (at least...realistically). I don't see what is wrong with other synods (such as LCMS/WELS). That's why I was asking why the reason to change from being Lutheran.
 
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ricker

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Thanks, Albrean (and Studeclunker). I believe the Bible is the word of God to us, revealing His will. The ELCA has apparently allowed a sort of freedom to disregard what they don't like or feel isn't politically correct. I think we have irreconciliable differences.


I think I may well end up in a LCMS congregation. I was raised SDA and came to know it was a messed up religion. (ever heard of Ellen White?). I kinda fell into being an ELCA member when I was not really an active Christian. Now as I have the opperatunity to more or less "start over", I want to check out a couple other denominations along with the LCMS. Thing is, I think I got lucky with Lutheranism and agree wholeheartedly with most of its doctrines.

I went to a Lutheran Bretheran/ Independant church a couple of times ( I can see the steeple from my kitchen) and was not really impressed. Went to a LCMS church and loved it. I am going to a Baptist church Sunday to check it out.

It bothers me a little that somehow Lutherans are looked down on in some Christian circles. I'm not sure why.
 
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Aibrean

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My husband's family is all SDA. He grew up with it. It makes me happy to know he's not one (his parent's couldn't afford to put him in school and he was allowed to do what he wanted during the service so he didn't pay attention and then they were both in the medical field so they worked many Saturdays so he didn't go). It was hard when we were dating because the other side of the spectrum was so different to him.

We found Lutheranism together along with my brother (my husband liked the traditional aspect with the church we attend). We were all baptized together. We all attend church together. It makes me happy that he's got faith now...SDA was never about faith. It was about rules and regulations. They miss the whole point of the gospel and only focus on law. His mother told him if he lived a good life he'd get to heaven.
 
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porterross

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Well, we're too Catholic for the Reformed and not Catholic enough for the Catholics. The Anglicans would probably like us well enough, but they have a lot on their plate just now...



Yes, true Anglicans appreciate the core of Lutheran doctrine, Anglo Catholics even more so, but more liberal Episcopalians, not so much. All the minute distinctions can really do a seekers head in. Those of us raised in solid, confessional Lutheranism should be on our knees constantly in gratitude.
 
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DaRev

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It bothers me a little that somehow Lutherans are looked down on in some Christian circles. I'm not sure why.

It's mainly because Lutherans (and I qualify that by saying 'Confessional Lutherans' to disassociate ourselves from the ELCA) stand firm in our doctrine and practice. We vehemently reject false teachings that many other church bodies embrace, and then they can't seem to figure out why we won't worship with them in civic events and such.
 
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ricker

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I just want to update anyone interested on my search for a new church home.

I went a couple of times to a LCMS congregation I really liked, great pastor and resonably friendly and involved members, but the second time the pastor announced he had accepted a call to SD. It might be a long wait to see when they get a new pastor, and if the church changes.

I went to another local church and there was 14 people there incuding me, no one but the pastor was friendly, and the pastor didn't look up from his notes once during the message.

Went to another church of about 50 members attending, but they seemed to have virtually nothing going on during the week, and there was no fellowship time before or after the service. The guest pastor had a great sermon, though. The regular pastor was at the convention.

This moving on from the ELCA might be harder than I thought it was going to be. There is still one large LCMS congregation I can check out, and one WELS.
 
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Studeclunker

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Ricker, when you visit the WELS congregation, please cut them just a bit of slack. They saw the fall of many denominations coming back in the forties. Hence they have a more suspicious outlook toward the other Lutheran Denoms. Most especially toward the one you just left. Having come out of the ELCA myself, I can fully agree with them.

There was a time when LCMS and WELS were in full altar/pulpit fellowship. This was broken off when LCMS embraced the ALC with fellowship, which later became one of the larger members of the ELCA. Missouri Synod still hasn't fallen completely, at least not doctrinely or theologically, but more in the organizational and political areas. Hence, you will see considerable differences within that (Sorry Abrean) denomination.

WELS is very consistant and also very wary. They won't tolerate any error in doctrine, theology, or deviations in practice (within limits). You will notice that the women are not allowed to participate (in many congregations) in the decision making processes, not even to vote in member's meetings. Many people accuse the denomination of being too nineteenth-century in their outlook. They/we prefer to think of it as a more biblical outlook and practice.

So... good luck in your continuing search. As the Lord said, "Search and you shall find..."
 
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ricker

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Thanks for the "heads up".
 
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