Grace etc

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 13, 2006

I will paste a recent diary excerpt for anyone to offer a response to. Because of censors I will censor my own "wash-my-mouths" thankyou very much!

Grace, despite our better judgment. Grace, despite their ignorance.
What is freedom worth? What restrictions do we place upon freedom?
For the only restriction I see is responsibility for our own actions.
Responsibility cannot be taught, cajoled nor imprinted. Responsibility is our ability to respond.
How do we respond to our freedom? How do we respond to the freedom of others?
How do we protect ourselves from the ways in which the freedom of others impinge upon us?
How do we allow true freedom, but maintain boundaries?

You know what? *Forget* this boundaries *stuff*. Every millisecond God lives it with us, letting us *fuss* it all up cos we aint never gonna learn if we are just told what to do. Never. And God is there - freaking out and hurting and loving and giving grace, knowing it is for our ultimate freedom - right there with us.

Gods freedom is entwined with our own, maybe.
Will church ever learn this lesson? Seriously, if we are ever gonna truly honour each other as friends, then we free one another to *fuss* it up and prepare for the consequences, sharing the pain all along. Being like God, being to each other both best friend and most intimate lover the friend that understands what you must do to be free; the lover that is crushed by the consequences.
Truly unconditional love.

My previous approach was to minimize damage to everyone not least of all to those of us who would have to pick up the messy pieces and try and second-guess the future with the Bible, logic and facts. Obviously I am grossly simplifying here. Hello church? Humans dont need facts, they need humans. Why else is God so unproveable, yet so intimately knowable? Why else did the unseen all-powerful become all-human and killable?

Makes you think. Makes you think that the Godliness of God may be directly related to the humanness of Jesus. People say, the God of the Jews is like almost opposite to the God of the Christians - like from big bad wolf to little lamb chop. You know what, people are right! God changed. Well, heres an *idea* for you; maybe God changed when he became human. Maybe experiencing our *mess* as a *messy* little human actually affected the very core of God. Maybe.
This is for sure though, I am driven by the humanity of Christ to never again hide from human suffering, from our shared global uniting poverty. And I can only do this by the grace of an all-powerful God.

Holiness is not to be striven for, it is to be unlocked. We all know the story of Eden, of how sin was imprinted into our DNA because of the type of freedom we chose. Well, at the Cross holiness was unlocked for all at a genetic, human level. Buying us a freedom wider than one we could possibly chose for ourselves. In my opinion, if you are striving for holiness, you havent suffered enough. Go get *messed* up, share in the *mess* around you, know pain and suffering and youll find Jesus and holiness and freedom. This isnt just about feeding the hungry, visiting prisoners. Its about boundaries. In our minds, starving with the hungry, shivering with the naked, condemned with the lifers.

Contrary to popular myth, pain and suffering should not lead to the Darkside. Pain and suffering unlock holiness. Pain and suffering lead to personal freedom, and free our fellow travelers on the way.

(this post is in the Lib sect. too... I never know where to stick stuff in this cf universe)

amused · Nov 13, 2006

I wish I could hug you hahahaha. I could cry I am so happy! haha.

Thats fanfreakentastic! You have a way with words. I am not so eloquent but I feel the same way well from what I can gather I think I do. GRACE!

and the wash your mouths out comment you made I laughed haha. It was funny because I got one a few of those in my first post or one of my first ones and I thought "wash my mouth out hahah" I dont remember swearing. I suppose what some people class as swearing just isnt in my book.

cheers

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 14, 2006

One response. Excellent and thanks.

Anymore for anymore?

Freedom&Light · Nov 14, 2006

Why else is God so unproveable, yet so intimately knowable? Why else did the unseen all-powerful become all-human and killable?

Awesome.

Do you think God "changed" or that He changed His focus? I mean God is unchangeable, but you're absolutely right- something shifted. Perhaps it's the human focus that changed from "Our God is Bigger than your god" to "God loves us all. Believe in Him." ...hmmm. Probably not your point, but it struck me nonetheless.

One of the best things about Christianity is freedom and free will. I disagree with churches that try to take that away.

amused · Nov 14, 2006

Ooo I like your banner Freedom&Light. I tell you one line I really cringe at when I hear it is "falling from grace" especially when it is used in regards to sin. I am a firm believer of falling into grace, actually just living in grace. Grace engulfs me, gives me strength and hope that I can live and be a light and salty no matter what happens.

cheers

Freedom&Light · Nov 14, 2006

I firmly believe one can leap from grace, but not fall from it.

Thank you! It's one of my favorite songs.

amused · Nov 14, 2006

Thats really cool (this must be my catch phrase lol) I was trying to figure out how we could fall from grace and I knew that wasnt right in my head but the way you said leap from makes sense to me lol.

I still dont quite know if leaping from grace can be done, or if Grace is the air we breathe? I guess its that ever popular question, can we lose salvation once we have accepted it? There is so much written about it and I still don't get it.

All I know is it is only through Jesus that I get out of bed in the morning and bother with life. There are so many hurting and lost people out there that need that same hope and grace to get out of bed and live. I suppose there are so many people who manage to live life without the knowlege of Jesus too. Hmmmmm I don't know how they do it. I guess I have to remember that not everyone is excruciatingly deep. lol

cheers

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 15, 2006

LOL ladies. Nice one.

Grace is as complex as it is simple.
It is said of Karma that when one studies and learns something, one must lay it aside and forget all lessons. When the situation occurs that the knowledge is needed in, ones body and mind respnd in ways influenced by the forgotten teaching, automatically making teaching ones own.

To understand something most clearly, we must let it go. It is no different with God or Grace. Like God, Grace clings to us, always has our back.

And FreeLight, I agree with you about out notion of God changing. What I express is my own notion of God changing. I dont think God is offended that I dare to suggest that the unchangeable has changed, because by making such a suggestion we begin to grasp an aspect of God more clearly. The facts are that God is intimately intertwined with us - with our sin, our holiness - so deeply that even a culture like, say, Samurai, can exist in isolation for 3,000 years and still draw people towards, rather than away, from Jesus.

Jesus, like Grace, can be implicitly known. Never explicitly stated or sought, maybe, but lived nonetheless. When reflecting on the nature of Karma I reflect on this aspect of Jesus; he frees us. He allows us to forget him, so that he would become a more naturally embedded part of our psyche.

I mean no offence to anyone, but I believe that even the most "sinful" person who seems the "furthest" from God can have Christ more deeply embedded in their life than the most "devout" tax-paying christian.

IMO.

Peace out.

amused · Nov 15, 2006

WOOHOO!

cheers

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 15, 2006

Of course I could just be spouting [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]

non-religious · Nov 15, 2006

[FLANDIDLYANDERS] but I believe that even the most "sinful" person who seems the "furthest" from God can have Christ more deeply embedded in their life than the most "devout" tax-paying christian.

Ok.....

So d'ya mind expanding on this point a little? I'm curious...

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 15, 2006

Hmmmmmn. Well I'm no theologian, I mostly talk bollocks, but I use a mate as an example.

This dude born in Cuba, raised an Atheist by default. Never met someone like him before... most atheists I know used to be God-believing of some kind... anyway, this dude, we talk about stuff, everything. And even pray. In him I recognise Jesus, in some of his actions and very thought-processes, yet he doesnt even believe in God, let alone Jesus.

So he got me thinking... I mean, for me, belief i Jeebus and the Cross and Water/Wine and so on is essential for my own ongoing relationship; but if some are judged by what light they have recieved, then simply shining light in their face doesnt actually work... this implies, to me, that some peoples very disposition is bent away from a concious aknowledgement of the Christ, but their genetic or spiritual disposition is one that seeks the Way, the Truth and the Life.

If it is Gods will that all are "saved", then is it beyond reason to suggest that people like my Cuban brotha will instictively find Jesus without concious recognition, and that can still "fellowship" with him, because I learn fro Jesus in him?

This is what I mean by implicit-Christ, rather than explicit.

It is not an excuse to "hide Jesus", but a reason to truly "find Jesus", no matter whom we disciple or love.

IMO.

amused · Nov 16, 2006

Something to think about

cheers

sheesk my posts have been getting very short.

Sign Of The Fish Burger · Nov 16, 2006

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:
Hello church? Humans dont need facts, they need humans. Why else is God so unproveable, yet so intimately knowable? Why else did the unseen all-powerful become all-human and killable?

the God of the Jews is like almost opposite to the God of the Christians - like from big bad wolf to little lamb chop. You know what, people are right! God changed. Well, heres an *idea* for you; maybe God changed when he became human. Maybe experiencing our *mess* as a *messy* little human actually affected the very core of God. Maybe.

This is for sure though, I am driven by the humanity of Christ to never again hide from human suffering, from our shared global uniting poverty. And I can only do this by the grace of an all-powerful God.

Man I love these statements. Good post my friend.

stanleyg · Nov 18, 2006

What can I say? You hammered the nail dead on the head. Good lick for those words of spiritual wisdom.

God bless you and hammer on!

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 18, 2006

Aw shucks you guys are sweeties. Yer all invited to my place for Mead and Curry.

I've been walking and talking this stuff a lot lately - and this "non-christian" (for those who believe in such distinctions) said this absolutely heart-blowing statement after we talked about Grace;

"It is the experience of Grace - of recieving and feeling it - that makes me think that God actually exists."

Now that is a testimony!

So Church, I am thinking that the more Grace we live and show and be, the more God is revealed. I cant be bothered to argue with the Fundies or whoever about this anymore... I dont care about the "hot" issues of how we can interfere with peoples identity, sexuality, gender, marital status... here is an absolute truth;

When the Church shows Grace, God is revealed in an intimate, if not explicit, way. Grace unlocks humanity, and humanity suddenly reflects and responds to God.

So anyone claiming that such and such is wrong or this and that is right can shut the fool up until they have shown Grace. If we cant show Grace we havent recieved Grace. If we havent recieved Grace its because we havent been honest enough with God and suffered with God over our utter torture of God thru our very daily life.

It is because of Gods Grace that God is proud of us, it is not because of what we do, because at any given moment we flit between "good" and "evil", "holiness" and "sin". Now if any mother wants to dispute this, then take a number and read the Bible while yer waiting.

Its time for a reality check; we screw God up everyday, and it by Gods grace that we please God at all.

Preachin to the converted? Sorry.

Peace you lot, and rock on (as some say)

Yes, I see that hand at the back, you have a comment....

Multi-Elis · Nov 19, 2006

Holiness is not to be striven for, it is to be unlocked. We all know the story of Eden, of how sin was imprinted into our DNA because of the type of freedom we chose. Well, at the Cross holiness was unlocked for all at a genetic, human level. Buying us a freedom wider than one we could possibly chose for ourselves. In my opinion, if you are striving for holiness, you havent suffered enough. Go get *messed* up, share in the *mess* around you, know pain and suffering and youll find Jesus and holiness and freedom. This isnt just about feeding the hungry, visiting prisoners. Its about boundaries. In our minds, starving with the hungry, shivering with the naked, condemned with the lifers.

Contrary to popular myth, pain and suffering should not lead to the Darkside. Pain and suffering unlock holiness. Pain and suffering lead to personal freedom, and free our fellow travelers on the way.

How?

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 19, 2006

Multi-Elis said:
How?

Well we are all different. My top tip is to not avoid suffering, at all.

You know when we sometimes give people advice or avoid something because the alternative would be too painfull for either us to endure, or for them, or too difficult for us to support someone through or for us to seek support. Well I say "bring it on". I've been hiding from the obvious suffering of myslef and my friends and strangers for too, too long now. So now I draw a line. I become transparent. Like a Samurai I consider myself as dead. This allows me to invite the dead people around me, on an equal basis, to also become transparent.

I may be talking in riddles, but it's as clear as I can make it. When we are gracious to ourselves and others, God is revealled. When we openly confess and confront and invite suffering, we unlock a new instinct, that which drives us towards grace, that which shows us a narrow road that winds through our humanity, a holy detour, if you like.

As I pour out and share my grace and suffering, I experience more and more grace, and share in the suffering of others. Holiness is unlocked for all.

Multi-Elis · Nov 19, 2006

This actually really interests me because I've been reading a lot about it this weekend. Also I read a couple years ago a book that turned around my life -- it distinguished two kinds of suffering: legitimate suffering and illigitimate suffering. Legitimate suffering is like when you make a decision to do the harder part first, and the easier part later, where as illigitimate suffering would be leaving the hard work all for the last minute, and suddenly it feels twice as hard as if you had done it first thing. Legitimate suffering would be taking the pains and the innitiative of rectifying a relationship, illigitimate suffering would be suffering the hell that comes from letting that relationship deteriorate. The legitimate is taking courage and daring, the illigitimate is being to scared and lazy and waking up to the sad reality that you missed out, and that you have nothing left to do but regret. So the way this book affected me is that I dared to do certain things that ment a lot of hard work but had the potential of teaching me more, rather than choosing the easiest way out, scared of doing too much work. And (at first) the results completely blew me away. In one class rather than being scared and doing a little mediocre dissertation, I took apon myself the challenge of doing an oral presentation in French. So rather than getting a mediocre grade on a mediocre dissertation, I got a surprise -- the best grade for the best oral presentation!
But by the same token, I dared to step out and do an experimental documentory. And it was pure stress and suffering dispersed with a few moments of dreaming (which were my motivation). After 3 months of working at it, 2 hours of stress suffering and pain a day, (it felt like it was costing me my blood) I took a good look at what I had done, it it was too long and not clear enough. I was so dissappointed at the results after 3 months of suffering, that I went bonkers. I really did, and had to see a psychologist (who as usual couldn't help me any more than time could)
Sorry for rambling, it's just to give context.

So when you talk about suffering, you are talking about a very important subject. I need to find out what you are saying.

When you say "not to avoid suffering" do you mean not to choose the easy painless way out when there are other options that might be more helpfull in the long term? Do you mean that the act of enduring suffering is a good thing? Is it always? Because there are all kinds of suffering, that can be avoided by numbing, or deciding that it isn't worth suffering: lonliness, being in love with somene who can't love back, projects you invest in that don't work out, dreams trashed...
So what do you mean by being transparent? In what ways are you accepting suffering? And what do you mean by your considering yourself dead? When I consider myself dead, I suffer even more. When I tell myself that I am suffering for a good cause, that it will bring about a better good, that it's a thing worth while, that it will better me, then it usually motivates me to bear it all the more.
How do you share in other's suffering? And in all this, what's it have to do with grace?

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Nov 19, 2006

Wow Multi, you dont do things by half!

You ask questions that relate on a very personal level, and, to be honest, I have no all-encompassing ideals to share, for I just try to live each day at a time.

Let me catagorically state that I am not advocating long-suffering as a means to personal piety!

As Samurai, I would say when there is a course to take, even if it is very difficult, it is best to dash in headlong. While I realise that to act impulsively is not always best, there are times when a restlessness will only promote "illegitimate suffering".

Of course, I ramble in all things. As is my way, but in answer to yer question, I believe that a policy of "safe" relationships within church - or anywhere - which attempts to cushion one another from pain or from facing fears, will eventually dillute us all. When we are transparent, resolved to be open about our pain and "reality", well, we find that others cant help but repond.

But i recognise that I have a tendency to bare all to all, rather than keep it in. I dont mean in a blurty way, just in my manner. How does this relate to grace?

Well, when we are gracious with oursleves we are automatically gracious to others, and they to us. Maybe.

Didnt answer much did I? Do press and share some more, Multi.

(BTW I got 110% for my Design Degree )

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Grace etc

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