God has not set in stone the plan for man.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 15, 2024

I would like to show that God's generational plans alter based upon our actions. An action we take today can change, the future generations, and how they play out. To show this let's look at the life of Saul.

And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 13:13) ... And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 15:35)

God told Saul, and God is not a lier, that He would have established Saul's line over Israel forever. This is the same promise that He gave to David, and fulfilled through him. But when Saul sinned God changed the generational plan from Saul to David. This shows that God's plan for man is flexible. Even his multigenerational plan.

David Lamb · Aug 16, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
I would like to show that God's generational plans alter based upon our actions. An action we take today can change, the future generations, and how they play out. To show this let's look at the life of Saul.

And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 13:13) ... And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 15:35)

God told Saul, and God is not a liar, that He would have established Saul's line over Israel forever. This is the same promise that He gave to David, and fulfilled through him. But when Saul sinned God changed the generational plan from Saul to David. This shows that God's plan for man is flexible. Even his multigenerational plan.

That view is to treat God as if He were human. When Samuel says that God would have established Saul's line over Israel forever, he doesn't mean that God had planned to do so, but now Saul by his disobedience has thwarted God's plan, so God must bring "Plan B" into action! The bible gives a different view of God:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I [am] God, and [there is] no other; [I am] God, and [there is] none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken [it]; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed [it]; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

FutureAndAHope · Aug 17, 2024

David Lamb said:
That view is to treat God as if He were human. When Samuel says that God would have established Saul's line over Israel forever, he doesn't mean that God had planned to do so, but now Saul by his disobedience has thwarted God's plan, so God must bring "Plan B" into action! The bible gives a different view of God:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I [am] God, and [there is] no other; [I am] God, and [there is] none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken [it]; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed [it]; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

God certainly has generational plans. Many of those plans are fixed. But many plans flex with the free will choices that we make. How do you explain God saying things like:

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (NKJV, Jeremiah 18:10)

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (NKJV, Jonah 3:10)

So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. (NKJV, Exodus 32:14)

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

The LORD does not plan out every action of man, it is not what God desires, the whole point of the tree in the Garden of Eden was to allow man to make choices. Yes according to your scripture, God has some unchanging plans, He must, otherwise there would be chaos. But it is 100% unbiblical to think God does not flex the things He carried out based upon free will choices He has allowed in man.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 17, 2024

David Lamb said:
That view is to treat God as if He were human. When Samuel says that God would have established Saul's line over Israel forever, he doesn't mean that God had planned to do so, but now Saul by his disobedience has thwarted God's plan, so God must bring "Plan B" into action! The bible gives a different view of God:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I [am] God, and [there is] no other; [I am] God, and [there is] none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken [it]; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed [it]; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

I am assuming you follow Calvinism. If that is your doctrine. How do you explain the will of man? A prominent modern-day Calvinist states:

God’s purpose is settled and sure. There is nothing over which God does not have control. His decree is immutable (Psa. 33:9–11, Isa. 14:14,27, 46:9–10, Dan. 4:34–5, Rom. 9:11–2, 19–21, Heb. 6.17–18). However, this does not mean that God is implicated in human sin and evils, which result from the fall. His effectual determinations respect the liberty of secondary causality, the actions of creatures in accordance with their particular natures. (Latham, Robert)

If God is not implicated in people's sins, that they commit from their sinful nature. How do you explain a sin like fornication or adultery, that may result in a child and subsequent generations? Either God is winking at their sin, or He is not.

David Lamb · Aug 17, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
God certainly has generational plans. Many of those plans are fixed. But many plans flex with the free will choices that we make. How do you explain God saying things like:

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (NKJV, Jeremiah 18:10)

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. (NKJV, Jonah 3:10)

So the LORD relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. (NKJV, Exodus 32:14)

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

The LORD does not plan out every action of man, it is not what God desires, the whole point of the tree in the Garden of Eden was to allow man to make choices. Yes according to your scripture, God has some unchanging plans, He must, otherwise there would be chaos. But it is 100% unbiblical to think God does not flex the things He carried out based upon free will choices He has allowed in man.

Does God know all things? I believe He does. Before the temptation in the Garden of Eden, God knew that mankind would fall. This is clear from the following verses:

“1 ¶ Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,” (Tit 1:1-2 NKJV)

Jesus Christ the Saviour brings eternal life to repentant sinners who believe in Him, and God promised this before time began, so before Adam and Eve had sinned. He didn't wait to see if Adam would sin, then make the plan to send His Son to save people. I suggest that it's a similar matter with all things that happen. None of them catches God unawares, as it were, and causes Him to instigate a new plan of action.

David Lamb · Aug 17, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
I am assuming you follow Calvinism. If that is your doctrine. How do you explain the will of man? A prominent modern-day Calvinist states:

God’s purpose is settled and sure. There is nothing over which God does not have control. His decree is immutable (Psa. 33:9–11, Isa. 14:14,27, 46:9–10, Dan. 4:34–5, Rom. 9:11–2, 19–21, Heb. 6.17–18). However, this does not mean that God is implicated in human sin and evils, which result from the fall. His effectual determinations respect the liberty of secondary causality, the actions of creatures in accordance with their particular natures. (Latham, Robert)

If God is not implicated in people's sins, that they commit from their sinful nature. How do you explain a sin like fornication or adultery, that may result in a child and subsequent generations? Either God is winking at their sin, or He is not.

I don't follow your reasoning - sorry! Why does the fact that God is not implicated in human sin and evils mean that He is winking at sin? I take the statement that He is not implicated in human sin and evils to mean that God in no way causes their sin and evils.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 17, 2024

David Lamb said:
I don't follow your reasoning - sorry! Why does the fact that God is not implicated in human sin and evils mean that He is winking at sin? I take the statement that He is not implicated in human sin and evils to mean that God in no way causes their sin and evils.

How can God possibly know the future in the linear way you are stating? Even an ardent Calvinist says that man alone is responsible for their own sinful actions.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

But a sin like fornication, or adultery, results is a dramatically altered future plan. You are saying God knows the plan, in a nonflexible, linear way.

If what you say is true God sat down before creation and made a whole heaps of sins that He desired to happen.

Contrary to that I say God sat down and planned how He would respond to sin "IF" it occurred due to free will in man. He also planned fixed events like the cross, that would happen to redeem man. But free will makes the plan nonlinear.

David Lamb · Aug 17, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
How can God possibly know the future in the linear way you are stating? Even an ardent Calvinist says that man alone is responsible for their own sinful actions.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

But a sin like fornication, or adultery, results is a dramatically altered future plan. You are saying God knows the plan, in a nonflexible, linear way.

If what you say is true God sat down before creation and made a whole heaps of sins that He desired to happen.

Contrary to that I say God sat down and planned how He would respond to sin "IF" it occurred due to free will in man. He also planned fixed events like the cross, that would happen to redeem man. But free will makes the plan nonlinear.

It possibly sounds simplistic, but my answer to your question, "How can God possibly know the future" would be, "Because He is God!" As God He knows all things. That doesn't mean He approves of all things. If He did, He wouldn't punish sin, there would be no hell, and sinners would have no need of a Saviour. It doesn't mean that God "sat down before creation and made a whole heaps of sins that He desired to happen."

FutureAndAHope · Aug 17, 2024

David Lamb said:
It possibly sounds simplistic, but my answer to your question, "How can God possibly know the future" would be, "Because He is God!" As God He knows all things. That doesn't mean He approves of all things. If He did, He wouldn't punish sin, there would be no hell, and sinners would have no need of a Saviour. It doesn't mean that God "sat down before creation and made a whole heaps of sins that He desired to happen."

But the reality we see in scripture is God does not know the intimate details of man's sin. For man is responsible for it.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

God did not "know" the evil at the time of the flood. In fact, He would not have even created man, had He known how sinful they would be.

David Lamb · Aug 17, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
But the reality we see in scripture is God does not know the intimate details of man's sin. For man is responsible for it.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (NKJV, Genesis 6:5-7)

God did not "know" the evil at the time of the flood. In fact, He would not have even created man, had He known how sinful they would be.

Does God see sin? Of course He does. Does sin cause Him sadness? Again, yes. Does He judge and punish sin? Yes. We cannot imagine how even what we would call a "small" sin must make a perfectly holy God feel, let alone such great sinfulness as abounded in Genesis 6! But none of that means that God didn't know it would happen.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 17, 2024

David Lamb said:
Does God see sin? Of course He does. Does sin cause Him sadness? Again, yes. Does He judge and punish sin? Yes. We cannot imagine how even what we would call a "small" sin must make a perfectly holy God feel, let alone such great sinfulness as abounded in Genesis 6! But none of that means that God didn't know it would happen.

And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. .... for I am sorry that I have made them.

How could the LORD be "sorry for making man", if he planned it, or knew beforehand their sins?

David Lamb · Aug 19, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. .... for I am sorry that I have made them.

How could the LORD be "sorry for making man", if he planned it, or knew beforehand their sins?

He could know their sins beforehand, and till feel grief when it actually happened. Human examples are necessarily inadequate, but even so, we know that everyone will die, but when it happens to someone we love, we grieve.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 19, 2024

David Lamb said:
He could know their sins beforehand, and till feel grief when it actually happened. Human examples are necessarily inadequate, but even so, we know that everyone will die, but when it happens to someone we love, we grieve.

You can twist it to say that, but that is not what the scripture means. It was man's heart that deviated from God's ways, not God that "knew about it, planned it", then "suddenly felt sorrow for it".

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

David Lamb · Aug 20, 2024

FutureAndAHope said:
You can twist it to say that, but that is not what the scripture means. It was man's heart that deviated from God's ways, not God that "knew about it, planned it", then "suddenly felt sorrow for it".

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

It is important with the bible to look at other passages. I think of what God says in Isaiah about His omniscience:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I [am] God, and [there is] no other; [I am] God, and [there is] none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’” (Isa 46:9-10 NKJV)

If God "declares the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done", we can't also believe that He did not know before it happened that the people of Noah's day would display such wickedness.

FutureAndAHope · Aug 20, 2024

David Lamb said:
It is important with the bible to look at other passages. I think of what God says in Isaiah about His omniscience:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I [am] God, and [there is] no other; [I am] God, and [there is] none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’” (Isa 46:9-10 NKJV)

If God "declares the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done", we can't also believe that He did not know before it happened that the people of Noah's day would display such wickedness.

A verse like that does not mean God has to know every little thing, God certainly has some plans set in stone, like the cross. I believe He also has worked out a plan for every possible event that could occur. He is a planner. He plans out our days and the future. But our choices influence which of God's plans plays out.

We see with Saul that God's plan to Establish Saul's kingdom did not occur because Saul was not found faithful:

And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 13:13) ... And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 15:35)

David also said that God had a plan for him written down before he was born. So God certainly plans out our days.

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)

However when David sinned God brought about a negative plan for David.

I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’

The word of God shows us that God's plans for people, cities etc, can change, based upon our actions:

if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. (NKJV, Jeremiah 18:10)

God has not set in stone the plan for man.

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