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I give up. If you don't like the definitions i provided from the dictionary and you won't provide your own preferred definitions then there is nothing else to discuss on this subject.Yes, your use of a word defines what you mean by it.
Undisputed - doesn´t solve the problem, though.
Any definition that´s not tautological will do.
The creation is changing but I don't have any idea why you are assuming that this is causing the creator to change. What change do you assume God is going through?Depends on the changes his acts are supposed to cause. God changes along with those changes - from not having caused those changes to having caused those changes.
Unless, of course, you think that creation is not causing any change.
Well, I want to understand your argument - and there´s not much use in superimposing my definitions upon your words.I give up. If you don't like the definitions i provided from the dictionary and you won't provide your own preferred definitions then there is nothing else to discuss on this subject.
The change from an entity that is about to (and is aware that it is about to) cause changes to an entity that has (and is aware that it has) caused these changes. Every action affects the acting entity.The creation is changing but I don't have any idea why you are assuming that this is causing the creator to change. What change do you assume God is going through?
No, you would have to discuss my ideas with me.Maybe if you told me which philosopher or scientist you are picking this idea up from and I can go read the source?
I addressed this already with Insane Duck in post #118 and 121 and for personal convenience I'll just repost.The change from an entity that is about to (and is aware that it is about to) cause changes to an entity that has (and is aware that it has) caused these changes. Every action affects the acting entity.
So no change occured?I addressed this already with Insane Duck in post #118 and 121 and for personal convenience I'll just repost.
“Problem with that thinking is that there is no "when' for that decision to be made. We are talking about the beginning of the universe and measurement of time. There is no "before" to make that decision.”
Then you neither can say that the act of creation changed anything.“Regardless if your view of time is a measurement of change or like a dimension in space; there was no time for God to exist before the beginning of the universe. You can't say God changed from point A to point B if point A doesn't exist.”
Change begins after the universe is created. There is no change from when there was no universe, to when there is a universe because there is no time before the universe.So no change occured?
That's a little confusing.Then you neither can say that the act of creation changed anything.
IOW: god´s creation had no effect. No-universe and universe are identical.
Lord Emsworth
(quote) "I would say that the universe exists outside of time. And if not the universe, the world certainly does. Now if someone were to add a God to the picture, it would not be any different for that entity too. God and the universe/rest of the world would exist outside of time, "
　
(reply) How did you come to that conclusion? And how are you defining the universe? I define the Universe as "all that exists" so how can you claim the concept of time can't be applied to all that exists? Please explain.
　
It is not reasonable to believe something when there is no sound evidence or sound argument supporting that belief. There has never been a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument establishing the existence of the Christian God or establishing the validity or truth of the claim that it is outside time.The other possibility to the ifs cant be proven either. Its just about what is the most reasonable position, not where there is proof.
You claim the Christian God exists, that it is outside time and that it is constant and unchanging. My position is that I dont believe you. I dont believe any of those claims until you can present some sound evidence or sound arguments establishing their validity or truth. So far, you havent done that.Can you explain your position reasonably or is the limit to this discussion going to be I need to offer you proof or you are right and Im wrong? Without you ever explaining your position?
I say the Christian God because this is a Christian web site and it stands to reason that it is the god to which most Christian posters are referring. I used to say your God when querying Christians, by which I meant the particular god in which you believe, but Christians would sometimes quibble about that by somehow taking it in the possessive sense thus evading the point of my questions. Recently, I decided to be more specific in an attempt to reduce those evasions.Why do you say Christian God? Do you believe in God rationally but have a problem with what you consider the Christian understanding of God?
I was trying to reduce the length of that sentence, but to avoid confusion Ill restate it using your phrase instead. So you think it is irrational and conceptually impossible for the universe to stretch back infinitely into the past, but Im guessing you dont think it is irrational or conceptually impossible for the Christian God to stretch back infinitely into the past despite there being a complete lack of sound evidence to support that belief. That isnt sound reasoning at all.Poor guess. To clarify the problem isn't being "eternal" in that it won't last forever... it's stretching back infinitely into the past that is the problem.
I agree. What is the sound argument that you heard that made you believe the universe has been around for an infinite amount of millennia and is without a beginning?It is not reasonable to believe something when there is no sound evidence or sound argument supporting that belief. There has never been a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument establishing the existence of the Christian God or establishing the validity or truth of the claim that it is outside time.
Why dont you believe though? What is irrational about what I am suggesting? What is the sound argument for material monism that you are supporting since I assume you believe there isnt anything that can be outside time?You claim the Christian God exists, that it is outside time and that it is constant and unchanging. My position is that I dont believe you. I dont believe any of those claims until you can present some sound evidence or sound arguments establishing their validity or truth. So far, you havent done that.
Im still unsure of what you are identifying about the understanding of God you are using that makes you label it Christian. But if you arent making any point about God with the labeling then it isnt important.I say the Christian God because this is a Christian web site and it stands to reason that it is the god to which most Christian posters are referring. I used to say your God when querying Christians, by which I meant the particular god in which you believe, but Christians would sometimes quibble about that by somehow taking it in the possessive sense thus evading the point of my questions. Recently, I decided to be more specific in an attempt to reduce those evasions.
And again what was the sound evidence and sound argument for your beliefs in a universe that has been here an infinite amount of time and is strictly material?No, I dont believe in any gods and I wont until someone can present enough sound evidence and sound arguments to establish that any of them exists. If and when someone does that, I will believe it exists. However, given the worthless arguments Ive seen from religious believers so far and the fact that not a single god has ever been proven to exist despite millennia of failed attempts, I dont hold out much hope of that happening.
Nope. You can read the conversation I was having with Laughing Duck and Quantona about there being no time before God.I was trying to reduce the length of that sentence, but to avoid confusion Ill restate it using your phrase instead. So you think it is irrational and conceptually impossible for the universe to stretch back infinitely into the past, but Im guessing you dont think it is irrational or conceptually impossible for the Christian God to stretch back infinitely into the past despite there being a complete lack of sound evidence to support that belief. That isnt sound reasoning at all.
Or maybe we could examine the alternative and see how rational that is?If you want argue that the Christian God exists outside time, you first need to prove that the Christian God exists at all.
Change begins after the universe is created. There is no change from when there was no universe, to when there is a universe because there is no time before the universe.
I had explained already. Now that I have found out that you consider god´s creation to be an action without any effect (which is an oxymoron in my understanding of these words, but apparently not in yours) I see how - based on this premise - it had no effect on god either.God's creation had no effect on God. You assume it does for some reason you have yet to explain.
Ok. Personally, I´d consider a state in which there is nothing to a state where there is a universe an effect, a change. Your terminology is different, apparently. And there we are back at square one: Me asking what "creation" actually means when it is an action without effect and didn´t change anything. God has always existed, the universe has always existed. I have no idea, then, what there was to create.There is no such thing as "no universe"... "no universe" is nothing. It doesn't exist.
"Before" in the absence of time? Your terminology gets weirder and weirder.Nope. You can read the conversation I was having with Laughing Duck and Quantona about there being no time before God.
Yeah there is nothing to change. God is the beginning of everything.Ok, so god´s creation didn´t change anything.
Where did you explain what the effect/change in God was? Or is it just about you thinking there was a time before the universe and you can accept the idea of a constant God beyond that?I had explained already. Now that I have found out that you consider god´s creation to be an action without any effect (which is an oxymoron in my understanding of these words, but apparently not in yours) I see how - based on this premise - it had no effect on god either.
The bolded section is where you are messing up. There is no state of nothing. Nothing means there is no state with an empty space where the universe will be. Actual nothing. People have a tendency when they imagine the start of the universe to imagine it starting within an empty space sometimes with time even and I think that is what you are doing.Ok. Personally, I´d consider a state in which there is nothing to a state where there is a universe an effect, a change. Your terminology is different, apparently. And there we are back at square one: Me asking what "creation" actually means when it is an action without effect and didn´t change anything.
[/FONT]Quote (Originally by ElijahW)---
[FONT="] Nope. You can read the conversation I was having with Laughing Duck and Quantona about there being no time before God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]---End Quote---[/FONT]
[FONT="]"Before" in the absence of time? Your terminology gets weirder and weirder.[/FONT]
Good. So god, the universe and time began simultaneously.Yeah there is nothing to change. God is the beginning of everything.
No, it´s you saying that there was be a state "before time". Since "before" signifies a temporal sequence "before time" is word salad.Where did you explain what the effect/change in God was?
Or is it just about you thinking there was a time before the universe and you can accept the idea of a constant God beyond that?
I think you would have to make up your mind.It’s not an “action without any effect” it is that the action is constant and unchanging since the beginning of time/the universe.
That´s why your idea "before time" makes no sense, by your own standards.The bolded section is where you are messing up. There is no state of nothing.
No, I am not doing such a thing. I am merely trying to make sense of your descriptions which to me appear to be the attempt to have the cake and eat it, too.Nothing means there is no “state” with an empty space where the universe will be. Actual nothing. People have a tendency when they imagine the start of the universe to imagine it starting within an empty space sometimes with time even and I think that is what you are doing.
[/FONT]Explained above: "before" and "after" signify a temporal sequence. They are meaningless if "absence of time" is involved.I have no idea what you think is weird about that sentence. What do you think I am saying there with those words or how do you think I should have said it?
I dont believe that.I agree. What is the sound argument that you heard that made you believe the universe has been around for an infinite amount of millennia and is without a beginning?
I just told you why I dont believe you. You havent provided any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your claims. There has never been a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that the Christian God is real.Elijahw said:Why dont you believe though? What is irrational about what I am suggesting? What is the sound argument for material monism that you are supporting since I assume you believe there isnt anything that can be outside time?3sigma said:I dont believe any of those claims until you can present some sound evidence or sound arguments establishing their validity or truth. So far, you havent done that.
When I say the Christian God, I mean the particular unproven god in which Christians believe. Im just distinguishing it from the Greek gods, Roman gods and all the other unproven gods that credulous people have believed in over time.Im still unsure of what you are identifying about the understanding of God you are using that makes you label it Christian. But if you arent making any point about God with the labeling then it isnt important.
Again, I dont believe the universe has been here an infinite amount of time and I cant see why you would reach that ill-founded conclusion. I dont see any sound reason to think the universe is anything other than material. Do you have any sound evidence to prove that it isnt strictly material (whatever you mean by that)?And again what was the sound evidence and sound argument for your beliefs in a universe that has been here an infinite amount of time and is strictly material?
Please take a sec to explain what the reasoning and evidence was that convinced you of that and maybe I can explain why it didnt convince me or maybe youll present some new take for this that will actually make some sense.
So tell us, do you believe the Christian God had a beginning? I havent seen any other Christian here make that claim. They usually claim it had no beginning, though, of course, they offer no sound evidence to support that claim or even the claim that it is real.Nope. You can read the conversation I was having with Laughing Duck and Quantona about there being no time before God.
Well, the alternative is that it doesnt exist outside time and that it doesnt exist at all. Both of those are quite rational positions to take given that there has never been a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that it does exist.ElijahW said:Or maybe we could examine the alternative and see how rational that is?3sigma said:If you want argue that the Christian God exists outside time, you first need to prove that the Christian God exists at all.
Yep, in that there was no time before God or the universe.Good. So god, the universe and time began simultaneously.
I think you are severely confused or at least one of us is. Im the one who is suggesting there is no before time you are the one who is proposing a time (state) before time.No, it´s you saying that there was be a state "before time". Since "before" signifies a temporal sequence "before time" is word salad.
I think you would have to make up your mind.
Either you posit that there was a state "before time" (whatever that might mean) - in which cas there was an action that caused time to exist, and therefore caused change.
Or you posit that there is no such thing as "before time" - in which an action that caused time into existence is impossible.
That´s why your idea "before time" makes no sense, by your own standards.
What is the nature of this state that existed before existence, if it isnt spacial or temporal?No, I am not doing such a thing. I am merely trying to make sense of your descriptions which to me appear to be the attempt to have the cake and eat it, too.
But the point of the sentence was there is no before before god or time.Explained above: "before" and "after" signify a temporal sequence. They are meaningless if "absence of time" is involved.
So you do believe there was a beginning to the universe. Ill try not to refer to that beginning as "God" since Im guessing you have some baggage with the word but so you know that is what the discussion has been about historically.I dont believe that.
Ok so youre not a materialistic monist. Are you a dualist or immaterialist? If you have room in your model of the universe for things that are at rest/immaterial, why not consider the beginning act/actor displaying that same nature. What exactly is outside of time in your understanding of the universe?I just told you why I dont believe you. You havent provided any sound evidence or sound arguments to support your claims. There has never been a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that the Christian God is real.
It is irrational to believe things that have zero sound evidence or sound arguments supporting them. For example, if I said that the modern-day Santa Claus is real and he exists outside time would it be rational for you simply to believe me?
Im not supporting materialistic monism nor have I said I believe there isnt anything that can be outside time. You appear to reach quite a few ill-founded conclusions. Im not saying that the reason I dont believe your claims is because it is impossible for anything to exist outside time. I dont believe your claims because you havent provided a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to support them.
Im not sure what you are distinguishing. The Christian God is a Greek understanding the Jews picked up from being occupied by the Greeks and Romans.When I say the Christian God, I mean the particular unproven god in which Christians believe. Im just distinguishing it from the Greek gods, Roman gods and all the other unproven gods that credulous people have believed in over time.
Because that is what you should believe if you dont believe in a God/Beginning. Instead of asking for proof of others understanding of God you should be explaining your understanding of the beginning.Again, I dont believe the universe has been here an infinite amount of time and I cant see why you would reach that ill-founded conclusion. I dont see any sound reason to think the universe is anything other than material. Do you have any sound evidence to prove that it isnt strictly material (whatever you mean by that)?
Yes there is a beginning.So tell us, do you believe the Christian God had a beginning? I havent seen any other Christian here make that claim. They usually claim it had no beginning, though, of course, they offer no sound evidence to support that claim or even the claim that it is real.
We both believe it existed but what was the nature of the beginning and what happened to it; along with why you are so certain it isnt still active, is what we need to discuss.Well, the alternative is that it doesnt exist outside time and that it doesnt exist at all. Both of those are quite rational positions to take given that there has never been a shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that it does exist.
If you want to claim that the Christian God exists outside time, you first need to prove that it exists at all. So far, no one has ever done that.
Ok. So there must have been a misunderstanding and we agree in this point: there can´t be a state before time.I think you are severely confused or at least one of us is. Im the one who is suggesting there is no before time you are the one who is proposing a time (state) before time.
Im not sure if we are on the same track here. The point is that the universe/god/time has a beginning because going back infinitely in time seems impossible.Ok. So there must have been a misunderstanding and we agree in this point: there can´t be a state before time.
So let´s start over: since there is no state before time, god, the universe and time must have always existed.
The first cause had the nature and effect that led to the formation of the universe.A: What does "god created the universe" mean in view of this premise?
Again to clarify, they havent always been. God has always been since the beginning of time and the universe more importantly God doesnt change. The qualities that God had in the beginning that led to the formation of the universe has remained and is supporting existence now, just like it did initially.B: What does "god exists outside time" mean when time and god have always been there?
When you place “The beginning” with a capital ‘T’ in quotes like that, it implies that you don’t mean the beginning in the usual sense, but instead you are using the term as a euphemism for the Christian God. It implies that you don’t mean “beginning” at all, but instead you mean “cause”. I can’t see why you wouldn’t just ask what I think is the cause of the Big Bang.What do you believe was the nature of “The beginning”? Was it temporary, in flux or constant? Any information you can provide about your understanding of the beginning would be appreciated.
I don’t apply labels to myself. As soon as we apply labels to people, we have a tendency to pigeonhole them and assume characteristics about them they may or may not possess. At the moment, I can’t think of anything physical that is outside time. There may be physical things outside time that I have no knowledge of, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. This discussion is about your claims that the Christian God is outside time and that it is constant and unchanging. I asked you to establish the validity or truth of those claims. You keep failing to do that. However, before you can argue that the Christian God is outside time, you first need to prove that it even exists at all. You’ve failed to do that as well. In fact, you haven’t even attempted to do that.Ok so you’re not a materialistic monist. Are you a dualist or immaterialist? If you have room in your model of the universe for things that are at rest/immaterial, why not consider the beginning act/actor displaying that same nature. What exactly is outside of time in your understanding of the universe?
You are exhibiting the common tendency of religious believers towards false dichotomies. Just because I don’t believe the Christian God is real it doesn’t mean I have to believe the universe has existed forever. Just because the Big Bang occurred is no sound reason to believe that the Christian God is real. Are you one of those Christians who just assume “God did it” whenever they are presented with something for which there is currently no explanation?Because that is what you should believe if you don’t believe in a God/Beginning. Instead of asking for proof of others understanding of God you should be explaining your understanding of the beginning.
I thought you weren’t a material monist? Now you believe that all there is in the universe is matter?
That isn’t what I asked. I asked do you believe the Christian God had a beginning. I ask because you claimed it is irrational to think the universe had no beginning. However, if you think the Christian God had no beginning then how is that not also irrational. If you think the Christian God did have a beginning then what do you think created the Christian God?Yes there is a beginning.
What on Earth are you talking about? You haven’t made any sense since the beginning of this conversation, but now your comments are degenerating into nonsense. I don’t believe the Christian God ever existed. I won’t believe it is real until someone provides enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that.We both believe it existed but what was the nature of the beginning and what happened to it; along with why you are so certain it isn’t still active, is what we need to discuss.
Which hypothesis do you consider the most rational when it comes to the nature of the cause for the Big Bang?When you place The beginning with a capital T in quotes like that, it implies that you dont mean the beginning in the usual sense, but instead you are using the term as a euphemism for the Christian God. It implies that you dont mean beginning at all, but instead you mean cause. I cant see why you wouldnt just ask what I think is the cause of the Big Bang.
Anyway, the currently well established beginning of the universe was the Big Bang. There is currently no putative cause for the Big Bang. There are only speculative hypotheses.
The question is what is the nature of the physical. You claim that you arent a materialist but I dont know what your understanding of the physical is. Is it matter bouncing off itself or is it the product of an law that isnt material.I dont apply labels to myself. As soon as we apply labels to people, we have a tendency to pigeonhole them and assume characteristics about them they may or may not possess. At the moment, I cant think of anything physical that is outside time. There may be physical things outside time that I have no knowledge of, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. This discussion is about your claims that the Christian God is outside time and that it is constant and unchanging. I asked you to establish the validity or truth of those claims. You keep failing to do that. However, before you can argue that the Christian God is outside time, you first need to prove that it even exists at all. Youve failed to do that as well. In fact, you havent even attempted to do that.
I thought that is what you meant by "I dont see any sound reason to think the universe is anything other than material." If you werent a materialist then we wouldnt be having this argument. You would be able to accept constant aspects to the universe at work. And then recognize those constant aspects go back to the beginning of the universe and apply that nature to the actual beginning.You are exhibiting the common tendency of religious believers towards false dichotomies. Just because I dont believe the Christian God is real it doesnt mean I have to believe the universe has existed forever. Just because the Big Bang occurred is no sound reason to believe that the Christian God is real. Are you one of those Christians who just assume God did it whenever they are presented with something for which there is currently no explanation?
I didnt say I believe that all there is in the universe is matter. You are either misinterpreting or misrepresenting my comments.
Yes. Nothing created the Christian God or caused the initial cause. What makes it the beginning or the cause is that nothing comes before it. If something comes before what you have in mind then that is the cause unless something comes before that.That isnt what I asked. I asked do you believe the Christian God had a beginning. I ask because you claimed it is irrational to think the universe had no beginning. However, if you think the Christian God had no beginning then how is that not also irrational. If you think the Christian God did have a beginning then what do you think created the Christian God?
You believe in a god you just label it the cause of the big bang. That beginning has been labeled God historically. You believe in a God, you just havent thought out which understanding.What on Earth are you talking about? You havent made any sense since the beginning of this conversation, but now your comments are degenerating into nonsense. I dont believe the Christian God ever existed. I wont believe it is real until someone provides enough sound evidence and sound arguments to prove that.
If Christians want to argue that the Christian God exists outside time or created the universe (or performs miracles or answers prayers or had a son or did anything at all), someone first needs to prove that the Christian God is real. In all of human history, that has never happened.
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