God does not kill Books

victoryword · Oct 13, 2010

Hi

I am not SDA but lately I have read some literature by SDA authors that has caught my interest, primarily in the area of God's character. I have read some books by Herb Montgomery, Elliot Douglin, Marilyn Campbell, Ty Gibson, FT Wright and a few others.

Some of my internet surfing has shown me that many in your denomination are divided over the Character of God message, particularly in the area of belief that God never kills.

I was hoping to get some of your thoughts on this subject and see how prevalent this subject is and if there are any other recommended resources.

OntheDL · Oct 18, 2010

This is not a controversial topic in Adventist circle.

To answer your question...if the bible is infallible, God is life and God is love. So God does not kill or murder. How would you think of such a God who asks you not murder yet does it Himself?

victoryword · Oct 19, 2010

OntheDL said:
This is not a controversial topic in Adventist circle.

To answer your question...if the bible is infallible, God is life and God is love. So God does not kill or murder. How would you think of such a God who asks you not murder yet does it Himself?

Hi OntheDL

You say this is not a controversial topic in Adventist circle, yet, an SDA minister named Steve Wohlberg has co-written a book called "The Character of God Controversy" in which he repudiates other SDA ministers for teaching that God does not kill.

Let me say that I am sympathetic to the "God does not kill" message and agree with most of what is taught. I have held similar views years before reading any of the books. I agree with this group that many Old Testament passages have been misread to make God appear to be something that He is not. The fact that the "God does not kill" group believe that where some things appear to teach that God did eveil should be understood to be "permissive" rather than "causative." Many Evangelicals since Melancthon (Luther's successor) have discovered this truth.

However, many in this group do not make the distinction between "killing" and "murdering." Furthermore, there are some passages in Scripture in which God seems to be directly involved in the death of someone, even if it was reluctant involvement. When someone is being executed by the state, the state is not murdering the individual but killing them to protect innocent people from ever being victimized by this person again.

Nonetheless, I am interested in your thoughts on this and any other research that has been done on this subject within your denomination. Blessings.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 8, 2010

I'm not entirely familiar with this controversy of does God kill or not....

It seems to me, based upon my studying and reading the Bible as well as SOP, that God has destroyed people since at least the flood. Maybe someone can tell me who it was that destroyed the cities of the plain or brought the flood or killed those that disobeyed and murmured in the wilderness??

Te fact is, God has the perogative, although I know not His preference, to destroy those that He has created. He is a just and loving God and no one knows mens hearts and can see the end from the beginning as only He can.

Mind you, those that have been killed since creation have only experienced the first death and are in a state of suspended animation as it were, awaiting for their cases will come before the judgement to have their eternal fate decided based upon their record written in the books, so ultimately, in the end, God is vindicated for what He has done as necessary and in love. The distruction of the wicked is called His strange act as He is a God of creation, not normally of eternal destruction.

Isaiah 28:21
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Hope this helps but I'm still curious as to how someone could say that God could not kill or destroy that which He created...

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 8, 2010

Upon further reflection this came to me...

1 Timothy 4:1-2

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Seems to me that this false doctrine would be useful to deceive those that believe there are many paths to God (new age) or that God is not powerful enough to destroy Satan and sin.

OntheDL · Dec 10, 2010

EastCoastRemnant said:
I'm not entirely familiar with this controversy of does God kill or not....

It seems to me, based upon my studying and reading the Bible as well as SOP, that God has destroyed people since at least the flood. Maybe someone can tell me who it was that destroyed the cities of the plain or brought the flood or killed those that disobeyed and murmured in the wilderness??

Te fact is, God has the perogative, although I know not His preference, to destroy those that He has created. He is a just and loving God and no one knows mens hearts and can see the end from the beginning as only He can.

Mind you, those that have been killed since creation have only experienced the first death and are in a state of suspended animation as it were, awaiting for their cases will come before the judgement to have their eternal fate decided based upon their record written in the books, so ultimately, in the end, God is vindicated for what He has done as necessary and in love. The distruction of the wicked is called His strange act as He is a God of creation, not normally of eternal destruction.

Isaiah 28:21
For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Hope this helps but I'm still curious as to how someone could say that God could not kill or destroy that which He created...

With regard to the original question in connection with God's character, I think it deserves a deeper look.

The bible tells us God is love and God is life. If God took on His creature's form and died for their sins so they can have eternal life, how can anyone say God kills and murders?

That seems to answer the question of why Jesus came? To show us the Father whose image is marred by misconception that He is a severe God.

Did God smite Uzza for an innocent act? Did God destroy the whole earth in a flood? Or was the cup of iniquity full that they sealed their own destruction of which the justice of God demands? Why did Adam and Eve hide from the presence of the Lord after they sinned? How many cases of adulterers were stoned to death in the whole bible?

The wage of sin is death. So I contend that God does not murder and kill. He is rather merciful, patient and long-suffering. It's the persistent sins and long rejection of the call of repentance finally bring about death and destruction that the justice of God demands from the very beginning.

Cribstyl · Dec 10, 2010

Seems to me that when God declare "the wage of sin is death" would mean that His word would not return to Him void.

Deu 32:39See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

The fact that His great love and mercy would cause Him to sacrifice His only Son shows how God is able to give life to those who believe and death to those who refuse His gift.

The text above proves that God kills, God gives life, God heals..

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 10, 2010

It is far beyond our understanding the ways of God so to try and understand the things he does or why is foolishness and can only lead to a misunderstanding.

I do agree with Cribstyl though, the Bible is clear that God exercises His wrath and does destroy those that are opposed to Him, either through disobedience as in the case of the Israelites in the wilderness, or because of persistent transgression against His law...ie: the heathen nations.

honorthesabbath · Dec 12, 2010

ECR--or perhaps the wrath of God is He removing His hand of protection and allowing the natural consequences of sin to be revealed?

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 12, 2010

Was the flood a natural cause of sin or an act of God?

The fire coming down to the cities of the plain?

Or the two or three times(I can't remember off hand the exact number) that Moses had to plead with God to spare the Israelites?

Also, we know the reason God did not destroy Lucifer at the beginning of his rebellion was not because God was not justified in doing so but because the universe had to witness for themselves the course of sin to have God vindicated by Lucifers final destruction.

I understand the premise that the loving, merciful God that we serve could not do these things because they seem at odds with each other but God's ways are higher than our ways and His understanding above ours...

canukian · Dec 12, 2010

sometimes he burns them with lightning. ok couldnt resist.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 12, 2010

canukian said:
sometimes he burns them with lightning. ok couldnt resist.

Not sure exactly what you're refering to but it reminded me of Numbers 16:35

And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

I believe sister White described the fire that came out of the pillar of a cloud as lightning.

canukian · Dec 13, 2010

EastCoastRemnant said:
Not sure exactly what you're refering to but it reminded me of Numbers 16:35

And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

I believe sister White described the fire that came out of the pillar of a cloud as lightning.

god does not kill books. but sometimes he burns them with lightning : /

RND · Jan 4, 2011

honorthesabbath said:
ECR--or perhaps the wrath of God is He removing His hand of protection and allowing the natural consequences of sin to be revealed?

I think A. Graham Maxwell would say the exact same thing.

RND · Jan 4, 2011

victoryword said:
Hi OntheDL

You say this is not a controversial topic in Adventist circle, yet, an SDA minister named Steve Wohlberg has co-written a book called "The Character of God Controversy" in which he repudiates other SDA ministers for teaching that God does not kill.

Let me say that I am sympathetic to the "God does not kill" message and agree with most of what is taught. I have held similar views years before reading any of the books. I agree with this group that many Old Testament passages have been misread to make God appear to be something that He is not. The fact that the "God does not kill" group believe that where some things appear to teach that God did eveil should be understood to be "permissive" rather than "causative." Many Evangelicals since Melancthon (Luther's successor) have discovered this truth.

However, many in this group do not make the distinction between "killing" and "murdering." Furthermore, there are some passages in Scripture in which God seems to be directly involved in the death of someone, even if it was reluctant involvement. When someone is being executed by the state, the state is not murdering the individual but killing them to protect innocent people from ever being victimized by this person again.

Nonetheless, I am interested in your thoughts on this and any other research that has been done on this subject within your denomination. Blessings.

I think Wohlberg, however well intentioned he may be, is missing out in his understanding of who God is by being sucked into the "penal" model of atonement. In the days the OT was written many got a false notion of who God is by either the surrounding cultures influence on them or their own misguided understanding of God through their own misunderstanding. Or both!

God wanted to "talk" to the COI on Mt. Sinai. The COI said no! Moses, you go talk to Him for us. That ended the trust relationship before it got started! (Actually it started to end even before then). Can you imagine what would have happened had they let God speak to them? They would have learned of God and knew God just the way Moses did! As a friend!

I just can't imagine the God that says, "I no longer call you servants but friends" is the same God Wohlberg thinks "kills."

If you've never heard A. Graham Maxwell and his take I would suggest a visit to Pine Knoll would be good.

Book By Book - God in all 66

Dr. Maxwell's "God in All 66" series is truly a great way to ask questions and see the true character of God revealed. Enjoy!

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