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'Choice' means genuine choice. What do you think genuine choice means, as opposed to mere choice? The will? Yeah, all humans have will. The unregenerated will is corrupt and CANNOT submit.Genuine choice? Any man can be saved? Out of 100 people. God reveals HImself to each of the 100, and their choice determines their fate?
'Choice' means genuine choice. What do you think genuine choice means, as opposed to mere choice? The will? Yeah, all humans have will. The unregenerated will is corrupt and CANNOT submit.
According to Romans 1 nobody has an excuse. That does not imply they are able to choose just anything. The lost CANNOT choose Christ, per Romans 8. They WILL NOT.
You really have a strange view of Predestination. I'm guessing you are of the ilk that considers the person the master of his own fate, the believer to be a person who must figure out what God wants him to do with his life, and then it is up to that person to do it. If you want to know what was predestined to happen, look at what happened. Logically, EVERY DETAIL. Cain was predestined to do precisely what he did, and to suffer the consequences. He was given a choice, and chose wrong. Yet somehow you think the fact he was given choice, cancels out predestination of details.You seem to be sneaking around the bushes. In one case you say we have "choice", then you say we are Predestined to life, which would assume other are predestined to damnation.
But let's look at cain? His predestination what was it? Before he was born (having done no good or evil) he was destined to die in his sins? Was he? According to scripture this is not the case.
Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.
God gave him an "if" moment - If you do well, will you not have honour
Again what was cain's predestination. For God's sake he did not have a predestination.
Cain was predestined to do precisely what he did, and to suffer the consequences. He was given a choice, and chose wrong. Yet somehow you think the fact he was given choice, cancels out predestination of details.
Or are you of the kind that believes some people are just somehow (I mean, obviously not by causation) are better than others, and so choose better
Cain had two pathways, not one. They were:
Do you agree with that? Could Cain have been saved? Does not predestination cancel man's choice?
- Do good - receive good
- Do evil - receive evil
That is what it means to be Elect, given our will, to use it to follow God, so are chosen. As opposed to those who choose not to obey and end up damned.
Mat 13:47-48 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away.
Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
What do you mean could Cain have been saved? If he had chosen to do what was right, yes, but he chose evil. How does predestination cancel man's choice?
Answer me this: Apart from predestination, are our choices effects of the chain of causation? According to logic, yes, they are. What is the difference, then, if God is the First Cause of that chain? Our choices are still our choices, regardless of what causes came before.
This you answered to my question if some are simply better than others, and so we choose better. So if I read you right, you are saying yes, some are simply, in and of themselves, better than others. While I disagree very strongly, let's just go with that for the sake of argument. Do you not see how even that is caused? What makes one better than another --chance??
All things are caused, except First Cause.
The very fact that there was a tree in the garden of Eden should alert us to the fact of choices being important. Reformed theology nullifies man’s choosing, and makes salvation a choice that God makes, i.e. man has no part in salvation only God does. Reformed theology believes that God wills or is the cause of everything, that no acts is outside of God’s will. Basically He chooses a select few for salvation and damns the rest not giving them any chance of redemption.
Initially if you look into the theology, you could be lead to believe it is true, for it explains many verses in the Bible. However we have to be careful when breaking up scripture to not make a doctrine out of a few scriptures especially if there is counter scripture. So I will start with a counter scripture. A scripture that shows clearly that God did not preplan all the actions of man.
Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."
God’s will is not divided, how could He will the time of Noah and man’s response, know all about it, yet be sorry he created man. It makes no logical sense. So let’s go to the verses that are the center piece of Reformed theology. But before we begin, I will make a statement, I do not believe that the following verses apply to the individual salvation of man, which I believe is by freely responding to the message of the cross, and abiding in God’s will, bringing about salvation. But rather these scriptures apply to the “purpose of God” (Romans 9:11), the overarching plan God has for humanity. A structure, or thread of His will that runs through our everyday lives.
Rom 9:11-23 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethIt was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Reformed theology, takes the above scripture as meaning that even our individual salvation is chosen by God, where I say it is the overall purposes of God that are chosen, pivotal points in history or our lives.
We know from the Bible, that “God is love”, in general if you read the Bible you see a fair minded God, who asks us to “love one another”, to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; all in all God seems fair. The verses above seem far from fair, God hardens some, sending them to hell with no chance at all. That does not seem like, the God who says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. But let’s go right back to the verse about God hardening Pharoah. What does it say?
Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Paul says inspired of the Holy Spirit, God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath”, what does he mean by that? Well,
2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish, but that all, and I stress all, should come to repentance. If we flow this thought through the passage in Romans. It could be stated this way: “what if God wanting to show His wrath against the vessels of dishonor, had previously endured their behavior, i.e. attempted to bring them to salvation, but they had resisted it, so God gave them over to a plan that displayed His wrath”
Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
But we have to admit from scripture that God has foreknowledge the ability to know certain events or people beforehand. But what people do not realize is you don’t need a fixed story to know certain people or events. A supercomputer can predict outcomes in a game of chess, which involves “knowing” all random choices a person can make. Using a thing called a Decision Tree, and for good reason, it predicts outcomes based upon decisions. Below you can see a Decision Tree for a simple game of Naughts and Crosses.
So how does this fit with God’s foreknowledge? Let’s say you have a dice, and roll it. It has 6 possible outcomes. If you roll it again the next time, it has the same six outcomes. If you record each outcome, maybe 5 first, then a 3, then a 2. Let’s say we wanted to record all possible outcomes that end in a 6 being rolled on the fourth try. It could be 1, 4, 3, 6 or it could be 2, 5, 1, 6. We would find there are many combinations but they all end in a 6. Let’s say 6 is our end game, it matters not what happens in between the first roll, and the last, as long as our last roll is a 6. Let’s say 6 represents the end of creation when Jesus returns, or what we have been talking about fixed points of God’s purpose. It matters not what happens in between as long as Christ returned, or our purpose is fulfilled. We can look at the numbers in between as free will choices, the freedom to have any number of outcomes does not affect our end game, as long as we force the last number to be a 6. I believe that God has set end game points in every person’s life, a point of decision, an important event, a choice event ordained by God. How we respond to these important events will determine the path for our life. Yet it is a path through what I would call a Decision Tree. This is why God could say in Genesis “I'm sorry I ever made them”. Yes God has foreknowledge, but at the point in Genesis that he “currently knew”, He was sad of the outcome. He still retained foreknowledge of all that would happen after, according to his plan and will.
Maybe I misunderstand how Predestination is supposed to work. Could you answer me this question:
Out of a sample of 1000 people (if that represented the whole of creation) how many of them will God attempt to save.
Would you say God attempted to save Cain?
He is first cause for everyone, and everything. But I'm guessing you mean a different use of 'first cause', as in: first mover toward a person's salvation, maybe even toward the person's accepting of the truth. I say, yes and no. Yes, he does move first, because nobody will come to him without him causing them to do so. But, no --he changes the person --not just influences him-- to a new mind, new heart, new will. Otherwise, the person remains at enmity with him. Dead. Incapable.God is certainly the cause of salvation, he "opens our ears to instruction", he shows us our need. So he is the first cause, but I believe he is the cause for all people, not just some.
All people are created equal, some are not innately better, but due to our choices, we can obey God, and become pleasing to Him. Faith in Jesus, is the first step in that obedience, receiving Christ. We then have to work out our salvation "with fear and trembling", i.e. respect for God.
The thing with this idea of knowing the endgame but not what happens before still has problems. Knowing how it ends does give you some information about what happens prior to that. Fir example, in your dice example, if you know that the last digit rolled will be a 6, then you know that nothing can happen that will result in the 6 being removed. Granted, that's a bit awkward with the dice example, so let me use another one.
If God knows that Humans will destroy themselves with nuclear weapons, then that means they need to develop science, they need to develop the mathematics required, infrastructure needed to mine and refine ore, etc.
In short, for any specific outcome, there are things you can learn from it about what lead up to that outcome.
"Attempt"? God doesn't attempt. He saves all he sets out to save. He cannot fail. Now if by 'attempt', you mean, he sets in place all that is necessary to save, except the act of the Holy Spirit changing the will --that I can go with. He does that with everyone. They are without excuse. They WILL to not believe. They choose against him.
There you go with 'chance' again. He had opportunity, but chose NO. If, as you say, any man can, why did God say the sinful nature, the heart of flesh, can't? Was he lying?So essentially you are saying God lied to Cain. Because he had no chance to really believe. Because as you say they WILL to not believe (essentially they can not, without God, for as you say "because nobody will come to him without him causing them to do so").
But that is not the truth a man can believe, any man can believe. That is why God said to Cain.
Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.
There you go with 'chance' again. He had opportunity, but chose NO. If, as you say, any man can, why did God say the sinful nature, the heart of flesh, can't? Was he lying?
I am not saying God lied to anyone. If Cain had chosen right, he would have been accepted. Again --The command does not imply the ability to obey.
What a person chooses makes all the difference in the world. But he will choose wrong, unless God causes him to choose right. You want a causeless choice. Not going to happen.
- sighThe command does not imply the ability to obey
"Attempt"? God doesn't attempt. He saves all he sets out to save. He cannot fail. Now if by 'attempt', you mean, he sets in place all that is necessary to save, except the act of the Holy Spirit changing the will --that I can go with. He does that with everyone. They are without excuse. They WILL to not believe. They choose against him.
The dice example, is really only applicable to everyday choices that do not affect God's master plan (maybe I should have left it out, it is not a real good example). I probably should have put more emphisis on the Artificial Intelligence Decision Tree, which can predict the kind of outcomes that you are talking about.
A Decision Tree can predict outcomes based upon both free will choices, and things like technologies being developed, which in turn affect latter choices.
The trouble is that ANYTHING could affect God's master plan. Whether I choose to wear the black shirt or the white shirt could lead to my day being completely different. Let's say I wear the black shirt and spill my coffee at lunch. I'll figure, "Who cares, the shirt's black, the stain is barely noticeable," and continue my day. But if I wear the white shirt, I'll figure, that stain is so obvious, I can't keep working like that," so I go to the shop on my lunch break and buy a new shirt. I could then bump into an old friend at the shop and pick up our friendship. That could change the course of the rest of my life.
In short, there are no small choices.
This is where the idea of a predetermined plan comes in, some things are so fixed that they can not be changed. Important events. God often speaks of knowing beforehand what will happen to particular people, he sets in motion predetermined plans for people and prevents other actions. As examples, He knew Peter would deny him three times. How could this happen, only if a) God knew how many times Peter would be tested, and b) He also knew what was in Peter's heart. At the very least God put limits on Peter's testing. We see in Job that satan asked to test Job, and God gave boundaries of the testing. It is possible that God did the same for Peter, allowed Satan to test him three times. He also knew Judas would betray Him beforehand. He at least knew what was in Judas' heart, and may have used Judas' bad heart to perform His will. What I am suggesting is things have limits, and some things are prevented altogether. What is predetermined, in a predestined sense may be broad, or narrow.
Of course, if this is correct and when people do things like this it is because it was predetermined and can not be changed, how can we be held responsible? How can we blame Judas for betraying Jesus when this argument tells us that Judas had no choice in the matter?
And how is it possible that only SOME things are predetermined? Any of the non-predetermined things could have changed it so the predetermined thing could not have happened.
It is possible for every possible outcome to be known ahead of time. I don't believe God predetermines every action. As we can see in Genisis:
Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."
If God truely predetermined every action, He would not be sorry for making man.
But God can restrict our choices so he can know what will happen. Sin as an example, God could know a person is likely to get angry, He could know they may use their fists to hit someone, but He may restrain them from being near a gun when they do (to prevent a higher level of harm). God does not casue the person to sin, he just knows what "could happen", so plans outcomes based upon choices.
What we are basically doing is looking at the choices people make and saying it is impossible to know what could happen. But that is using the human mind. God's abilities far surpass our abilty to compute or comprehend. It is tecnically possible to know all outcomes in a free will system. I have studies Artificial Intelligence, and know the possibility, given a fast enough computer. As I stated:
... there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation, or game, the computer can essentially know with in a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster, and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, simplifies computation. For God to know every person, every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God has done:
Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
As for being held accountable for things like Judas betraying Jesus. He had already betrayed Jesus in his heart. The bible said he was a thief (stole from the money bag), Jesus just used his heart of evil to perform a simple act of betrayal. The bible says God does not tempt any man to sin, and can't be tempted by it. This means that only plans God classes as sinless are put on men. Things that they probably won't be held to account for anyway.
No, because we all choose to go against him. But he has chosen, and made, a particular people for himself. These he changes, completely apart from any effort or worthiness on their part.So if a person chooses to go against him, then God will not set out to save them? That causes a problem.
If God sets out to save someone, then he cannot fail. And yet if someone wills to not accept him, then they can't be saved. So God has no option other than to not even try with them. He can't try even if he wanted to, because if he did, he would succeed and they would be saved, but that would contradict the claim that they can not be saved.
So, it seems that while we mere mortals can choose to not believe, God is unable to choose to save them. We have free will and God does not, apparently!
No, because we all choose to go against him. But he has chosen, and made, a particular people for himself. These he changes, completely apart from any effort or worthiness on their part.
We have all willed not to accept him. But to some of us, he gives new birth (regeneration), when the time is right according to his purposes. Who says they cannot be saved?
God can choose to save anyone he chooses to save.
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