Global warming and the end

Who would have thought I'd agree with John Kerry of all people?

Meanwhile, speaking in Jakarta at the end of his three-nation visit to Asia, US Secretary of State John Kerry declared climate change is “perhaps the world’s most fearsome weapon of mass destruction”, and dismissed its deniers as flat earthers.
In an extremely strongly-worded speech, Kerry said “a tiny minority of shoddy scientists and extreme ideologues” should not be allowed to compete with scientific fact.
Renewables inquiry leader vows 'open mind' on target's future

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Interplanner said:

Even the NYT is skeptical of ObamaKerryscience
Kerry calls climate change a 'weapon of mass destruction' | On Air Videos | Fox News

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Fox News is a Republican Denialist front. Please don't quote from this agit prop organisation. Oh the humanity!

AnticipateHisComing said:

Do you think any works of man will change the tribulations prophesied by God for this earth?

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As an Amil, I think the idea that there is some special 'last days' period of suffering somehow worse than all others is preposterous. The theologians I read are convinced the 'last days' began in Acts 2 and that the Apostle John shared in the 'tribulations' of the last days as he was stuck in his cell. Therefore, YES, the 'works of man' will change and influence and effect the tribulations we suffer: because many of the tribulations are man-made! The beast itself is picture language for any time governments appear like the Roman government did: steeped in worldly philosophy and at war with God's people. In this sense, North Korea and various Muslim states are already 'beasts'. People enact the tribulations of God.

As to the rest of Revelation describing nature in chaos, yes, that's under God's control. His Judgements. We saw them in the 2004 Tsunami, the Japanese Tsunami, volcanoes and earthquakes etc. It *largely* as it always was: this world is not perfect, but marred by sin. In a sinless world, maybe earthquakes would have been *fun*? But now, they are deadly.

But here's the question you have to answer: does the fact that human society and nature are already in chaos (wars and rumours of wars & earthquakes etc) then give you the right to make that situation worse? Does the potential for earthquakes and volcanoes mean you can just poison your neighbour's yard with some old chemicals you have left over from your day job? No? Why not? What about tipping it in the river, where statistically it may or may not harm people downstream? Statistically? Is morality statistical? Can we build public policy on it, or vote with statistics in our conscience? Should they have outlawed lead in our petroleum, yes or no? Why?

I don't think the fact that we are living in the 'tribulation' (and have been for 2000 years) means we are exempt from moral thinking about our politics. In fact, BECAUSE this is a Christian forum I think we have an EXTRA reason to consider our careful use of the environment, and how to appreciate the robust ecosystems God left to us that we have somehow over logged, over fished, over farmed, over dammed, over infested, over used and over-heated. How to preserve the biodiversity and species God made is part of our Christian duty: how to preserve environmental ecosystem services is also part of our Christian compassion to our fellow human being. We tend to get hungry and starve and die when the crops fail! Even Calvin understood this and explained the duty of Christian farmers to leave their fields in a better state than they received them!

Global warming is, as close as anything is in science, a fact. We can measure what happens with CO2's heat trapping properties: repeatedly, demonstrably, again and again. We know what it does. We know what more of it does. That part of it is not too hard. Tracing where the trapped heat goes in this complex globe: that's hard! But we're seeing where it shows up.

But the bottom line? We're running out of cheap oil. We're going to run out of gas and coal one day (unless the Lord returns tonight, or sometime soon). Coal pollution kills a million people a year. Why do you love coal so much that you see it as an attack on Christianity itself to discuss alternatives?

AnticipateHisComing said:

I don't see how this OP has anything to do with the end times or even theology.

If you want to promote a political view, do it somewhere else beside in a theology section.

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You haven't answered the questions I asked you regarding the last bunch of accusations you hurled against me. When you can address my previous answer to your previous accusations, I might bother to reply to this set.

I think you got that the wrong way around. Here. I'll help you.

The facts that have been presented are the proofs that the temperature is rising.

Conspiracies about "historical" date setting ahve been asserted without evidence.


The conspiracies are fabricated, based on the assertions of a string of numbers that you cannot prove were ever part of anything official.


Oh, and by the way, the last time I checked? Amils believe in eschatology and I have every right to discuss the intersection of how our future hope impacts on our Christian compassion and behaviour and conscience now. So, just as poverty and child slavery and injustice are Christian concerns, so is the FACT of global warming. You will be held accountable for the false beliefs and denialism you are pushing. It is shameful.

AnticipateHisComing said:

Agreed. This forum is supposed to be about theology, NOT POLITICS.

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That's what this is. It's not my fault you can't see that. It's not my fault you suffer from a paranoid worldview that classifies peer-reviewed climate science as some kind of political conspiracy. It's not my fault that you cannot think outside of the futurist eschatologies you were raised in.

The reality is the CO2 we are emitting is raising global temperatures, is dangerous for us all, but especially the poorer nations on earth, and is a factor that effects how we view these Last Days that we live in (and have been living in for 2000 years).That is the theology I would like to discuss, but no one here seems able to do so.

Biblewriter said:

There is only one way to actually measure global temperature (as opposed to estimating it.)

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This is your assertion only, and you are not a climate scientist but someone willing to just believe that guesstimated maps of Terra Australis were actual maps of Antarctica! So your 'opinion' on the 'only way' to measure global temperatures is irrelevant and unproven.

Others model temperatures of the continents by land based systems distributed so:




(You're welcome, by the way).

Microwave Sounding Unit Temperature Anomalies | Temperature, Precipitation, and Drought | National Climatic Data Center (NCDC)

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This graph, produced by the NOAA, not by me, clearly shows the temperature of the Stratosphere steadily decreasing, not increasing, from 1979 to 1994 and remaining relatively constant since that time.

As this is the actual Satellite data, and presented by the United States Government on an official website, there is no way you can deny what it clearly shows.

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Unlike you, who constantly cries 'conspiracy' every time you read government data that doesn't fit your worldview, I don't NEED to disprove it. Stratospheric temperatures HAVE been declining. So what? Do you even know what the climate science says about this, or are you (again) just cherry-picking?
Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming - Revised

Interplanner said:

Former Greenpeace founder's 'reality check' for liberals | On Air Videos | Fox News

its just Patrick Moore

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You are correct. It is just Patrick Moore: he's not a climatologist. It's well known that he's a contrarian denialist who simply will not be convinced by the peer-reviewed science and demonstrable physics. It's just Patrick Moore! Sadly, he is his own worst enemy. If he actually stopped mucking around trying to debunk climate science, he might find allies in people like me that support nuclear power!

Moore has been criticized for his relations with "polluters and clear-cutters" through his consultancy and has earned his living since the early 1990s primarily through consulting and publicly speaking for a variety of corporations and lobby groups such as the Nuclear Energy Institute. [7], [8]

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Patrick Moore | DeSmogBlog

But it's just Patrick Moore. He DIDN'T found Greenpeace, as is sometimes claimed, but has certainly played a role there in the past.

Biblewriter said:

How computer-generated fake papers are flooding academia | Science | The Guardian

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Biblewriter,
how's that stratosphere going? Have you recovered from the unveiling of your strawman yet? As I said, nnlike you, who constantly cries 'conspiracy' every time you read government data that doesn't fit your worldview, I don't NEED to disprove that the stratosphere has been cooling. Stratospheric temperatures HAVE been declining. So what? Do you even know what the climate science says about this, or are you (again) just cherry-picking?
Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming - Revised