gettin it twisted

masterfro said:

OK, I need to get some things off my chest. I may not be completely correct, but this is what I've come to believe. You should search for the truth yourself, as what I say may not be complete. Anyway, you should know that the people who created the books in the bible and such made it so that there were deeper meanings in the text. You must search for the true meanings of what they say. A day is 1000 years in Hebrew or something like that. Science says earch was created in about 7000 years if I remember correctly.

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You remember wrong. 4.6 billion years is a closer figure - or, at least, that's how old it is. When do you consider its creation "finished"?

The bible does say earth was created in 7 days/7000 years. Get that in your head. Second, life changes through evolution. That is how god created the world. God knows all, past and present, and started it knowing the outcome. He knew of Satans future betrayal and all that. He knows all. God set everything in motion for life to evolve into what it is today, and to what extent he "intervined", I dont know. Man was a chosen creation. Before he was chosen, he was like other animals, but with superior intelegance I guess.

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This bit I'd agree with.

The one thing that sets us apart from animals is out "spirit". God created us in his image when he gave human beings a spirit. We are not like him physically, but in our spirit. Do you see how there are deeper meanings? Please dont let ignorance blind you from the truth. The apple Adam ate represents some sort of thing Adam did to give him knowledge of the "Law", or sin. Without the knowledge of theese lawsa, there is no sin. Sins are the actions we take going against gods word/will. There was always physical death. When god said man shall know death for their sins, it was reffering to the spirit. A spirit that sins cannot join god/ the holy spirit. Now, it gets hazy. When the body dies, our soul is laid to rest with it I guess (this is the part of us that jesus refers to as sleeping, what exactly constitutes the soul part, I dont know), and our spirit moves on. I think our spirit is our basic contiousness, , but lacking something that the soul posseses, something connected with "life", and such seperation is death. From there I guess, the spirit continues to heaven or hell.

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I'm not sure about your distinction between "soul" and "spirit". Personally, I think that we are a spiritual animal, and cannot exist without the physical body - which is why the Christian hope is in resurrection - not some floaty afterlife in heaven or hell.

Everything in the bible is true.

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Mostly. For appropriate values of "true"

Science is true.

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Ooh - I wouldn't go that far. It constantly gets truer, but that's a far cry from being true. Science is always provisional.

The bible does agree with science.

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In the same way that it agrees with basket weaving and flower arranging. It's not its concern.

Evolution is something we can plainly observe with the transition from wolves to domestic dogs. Same **** thing. That is evolution. That is how god created life.

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God created life initially through natural processes, I believe. It's not evolution though, which is changes in existing populations.

That is the function god gave to life. All of this should also tell you that nothing eludes Gods ultimate plan, whatever that is, as who knows all, and is all. Everything was created, and started, and ends with god.

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That seems reasonable - "I am the Alpha and the Omega"

One more thing, satan in the garden of eden was not a snake. The term serpent means figure of light. Not a snake. You must use the terminology from that day if you are to completely understand scripture.

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Not sure about this one. Do you have a source?

Now, go out and research for yourself to find the evidance supporting or shooting down my prospective of the truth. Good day. By the way, I am only 14. I think I might write a book soon...

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I'd leave it a bit, with respect - I think you've got some good thinking going on but you have a lot of sorting out to do of your thoughts first.

masterfro said:

Anyway, you should know that the people who created the books in the bible and such made it so that there were deeper meanings in the text.

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I agree. Look for the theological meanings. Biblical literalism doesn't permit this.

A day is 1000 years in Hebrew or something like that. Science says earch was created in about 7000 years if I remember correctly. The bible does say earth was created in 7 days/7000 years. Get that in your head.

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Sorry, but like Karl said the data says earth has been around for 4.55 billion years. Genesis 1 does say 6 days. But Genesis 2 says one day.

Second, life changes through evolution. That is how god created the world.

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I agree.

God knows all, past and present, and started it knowing the outcome.

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I disagree. God created an indeterminant universe. Even He doesn't know the every event. He would know that the universe eventually will come to what is called the "heat death" but God does not know detailed outcomes.

He knew of Satans future betrayal and all that.

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That may be, but it is in the sense that you "know" how a person will behave. BTW, who created Satan? And where does it say so?

He knows all.

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No. God made a universe such that even He cannot know both the position and momentum of an electron at the same time. Nor can God know the details of the future. The future is not pre-determined. I personally like that because I like knowing my life has meaning.

God set everything in motion for life to evolve into what it is today, and to what extent he "intervined", I dont know.

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Good.

The one thing that sets us apart from animals is out "spirit".

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You need to preface this with "I believe ..." We don't know whether animals have spirits or not. You believe humans do, but we really don't "know" in the scientific sense.

The apple Adam ate represents some sort of thing Adam did to give him knowledge of the "Law", or sin. Without the knowledge of theese lawsa, there is no sin.[/quote

It wasn't an "apple". Also, it couldn't be the Law, since that wasn't provided until the time of Moses.

Sins are the actions we take going against gods word/will.

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Yep.

There was always physical death.

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All the theistic evolutionists agree.

One more thing, satan in the garden of eden was not a snake. The term serpent means figure of light. Not a snake.

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That first cannot be. The serpent had to be a material being. It lost its legs due to God's punishment. So the serpent was not Satan, because we encounter Satan again in Job and Satan is just God's gofer. He couldn't have that position if he'd been the serpent, could he?

You must use the terminology from that day if you are to completely understand scripture.

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That I agree, but I don't think your terminology is correct. Serpent was "snake" but Genesis 3 tells us how snakes got to be without legs. A naive creation myth.

Now, go out and research for yourself to find the evidance supporting or shooting down my prospective of the truth. Good day. By the way, I am only 14. I think I might write a book soon...

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You might hold off on the book. You should go out and try to shoot down your own ideas. Saves you the embrarrassment of others doing it for you. Also it shows you are considerate by saving their time.

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masterfro said:

Yes, after reading the first few chapters of genesis again, It really starts to confuse me.

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That's because you have two or 3 creation stories there. All edited together into one text much later than they were composed.

I do try and take the bible word for word, but it makes me wonder who actualy wrote genesis, and if he was making a completely acurate telling of how we came to be, or used some anologies and represnations of what really happened.

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Time to introduce you to the Documentary Hypothesis, which is as accepted in Biblical scholarship circles as evolution is in biology. You can start here:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jepd.html
http://www-relg-studies.scu.edu/netcours/hb/dh/index.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora.htm
http://www.auburn.edu/~downejm/hypothesis.html Friedman's separation

I really need to know about any other scriptures/ancient writings telling about/from the days before the great flood. That would help to clear things up a little bit...

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The one you really need is the Enuma Elish
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

Now, please do me a favor. Put up the Enuma Elish and then start reading Genesis 1. See if you can't make a very good correspondence between the sequence of creation in Genesis 1 and the appearance of the various gods in the Enuma Elish.

masterfro said:

Everything in the bible is true.

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I agree with this, when the Scriptures are all considered. Psalm 119:160 tells us that the sum of God's word is Truth.

Science is true. The bible does agree with science.

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Science is not something that is true or false. Science is the search for understanding and knowledge This makes your second statement not make much sense.

Evolution is something we can plainly observe with the transition from wolves to domestic dogs.

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You observed wolves transitioning into dogs? That's pretty amazing . This is something that I believe cannot be proven. If you're interested, we can talk about why science, philosophically speaking, will never be able to "prove" Evolution (notice the big 'E'. There's a difference between 'E'volution and evolution. That's how I write them at least. Macro- and micro-)

Same **** thing. That is evolution. That is how god created life.

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I think that some of your definitions are skewed here - I believe after glancing through the other posts someone else already covered this. I also don't think that this is necessarily how God created life.

That is the function god gave to life.

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What are talking about here?

By the way, I am only 14.

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Your profile says 19...you may want to fix that

aggie03 said:

You observed wolves transitioning into dogs? That's pretty amazing . This is something that I believe cannot be proven. If you're interested, we can talk about why science, philosophically speaking, will never be able to "prove" Evolution (notice the big 'E'. There's a difference between 'E'volution and evolution. That's how I write them at least. Macro- and micro-)

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His example was most likely incorrect. Chances are the wolf and the domestic dog share a common ancestor.

Regardless, speciation has been observed. In a D. melanogaster experiment a trio of scientists speciated a population of flies into three (I believe) sub-populations.

aggie03 said:

Science is not something that is true or false. Science is the search for understanding and knowledge

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Science is the examination of the physical universe. Individual theories or hyypotheses are either true or false. Creationism, for instance, is false.

You observed wolves transitioning into dogs? That's pretty amazing . This is something that I believe cannot be proven.

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3. C Vila` , P Savolainen, JE. Maldonado, IR. Amorim, JE. Rice, RL. Honeycutt, KA. Crandall, JLundeberg, RK. Wayne, Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog Science 276: 1687-1689, 13 JUNE 1997. Dogs no longer one species but 4 according to the genetics. http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm So we have observed the one species "dog" become 4 species instead of one.

What we mean by "proven" in science is shorthand for "all other hypotheses we can think of have been shown to be false"

If you're interested, we can talk about why science, philosophically speaking, will never be able to "prove" Evolution (notice the big 'E'. There's a difference between 'E'volution and evolution. That's how I write them at least. Macro- and micro-)

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]

Yes, let's talk about the philosophy of science here. And let's be sure to point out that the theory the earth is round can't be "proven" either. And let's talk about the non-difference between "evolution" and "Evolution". You realize that Darwin "proved" Evolution before anyone had "proved" evolution? The distinction between "micro" and "macro" is one made up by creationists to try to save creationism from falsification. There is no real distinction according to the data.


I think that some of your definitions are skewed here - I believe after glancing through the other posts someone else already covered this. I also don't think that this is necessarily how God created life.


What are talking about here?



Your profile says 19...you may want to fix that [/QUOTE]

masterfro said:

OK, I need to get some things off my chest. I may not be completely correct, but this is what I've come to believe. You should search for the truth yourself, as what I say may not be complete.

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I feel this way too, the Christian life and faith are a path one follows, each must search for their relationship with God. At the same time, one must avoid re-inventing the wheel so to speak, to balance out the two is difficult, but God never did promise the path would be easy.

Anyway, you should know that the people who created the books in the bible and such made it so that there were deeper meanings in the text. You must search for the true meanings of what they say.

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A day is 1000 years in Hebrew or something like that. Science says earch was created in about 7000 years if I remember correctly.

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Actually that is from Psalm 90:4 and then is repeated as Peter quotes it in 2Peter 3:8. Now we must remember that the Psalms are songs written by various people to show their feelings and ideas about God in their lives.



Now if I were to say that octopuses have gardens and farm the bottom of the sea because I heard it in a Beatles song you would think I was nuts… But someone says that a day to God is literally a thousand years because of a song that Moses wrote and no one blinks an eye… To me that is just weird.



The song is just singing about how great God is and is trying to put it into words we can understand, it is not trying to state facts, but express feelings.

The bible does say earth was created in 7 days/7000 years. Get that in your head.

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In Genesis 1 through Genesis 2:3, creation is six days long with a seventh day of rest for a total of seven days.



Genesis 2:4 through 2:25 there is a second creation story that takes place in just one day.



There are many references to a single day creation and a multiple day creation scattered through the rest of the Bible.



So it appears that even during the writing of the Bible there were several competing ideas about how God created and how long it Him.

Second, life changes through evolution. That is how god created the world.

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I personally agree with this. I see science as our working out the how and when of God’s creation. The why is for us to think on personally and probably has a different meaning for each person.

God knows all, past and present, and started it knowing the outcome. He knew of Satans future betrayal and all that. He knows all.

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I’m not sure this is true, God may have made a universe that he was not sure of the individual outcome for every thing in it.



This is part of a controversy that has been debated in the church since time began…



Pre-destination vs. Free Will



If you have true free will then the individual outcome is unknown.



If you do not have free will then the outcome can be known but one must ask if we are little more then puppets to God.



I am not sure where the answer is between free will and pre-destination, I’m not sure anyone but God knows.

God set everything in motion for life to evolve into what it is today, and to what extent he "intervined", I dont know. Man was a chosen creation. Before he was chosen, he was like other animals, but with superior intelegance I guess. The one thing that sets us apart from animals is out "spirit". God created us in his image when he gave human beings a spirit. We are not like him physically, but in our spirit.

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There is still much debate on what the “spirit” or “soul” may be, since we can’t point to it our measure it science cannot help us in this matter. I am not sure myself what it is and how it is different of the same as the thing we call conciousness.

Do you see how there are deeper meanings? Please dont let ignorance blind you from the truth. The apple Adam ate represents some sort of thing Adam did to give him knowledge of the "Law", or sin. Without the knowledge of theese lawsa, there is no sin. Sins are the actions we take going against gods word/will. There was always physical death. When god said man shall know death for their sins, it was reffering to the spirit. A spirit that sins cannot join god/ the holy spirit. Now, it gets hazy. When the body dies, our soul is laid to rest with it I guess (this is the part of us that jesus refers to as sleeping, what exactly constitutes the soul part, I dont know), and our spirit moves on. I think our spirit is our basic contiousness, , but lacking something that the soul posseses, something connected with "life", and such seperation is death. From there I guess, the spirit continues to heaven or hell.

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Everything in the bible is true.

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I agree as long as you aren’t narrowing down “truth” to mean “literally true”.

Science is true.

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I have to disagree here… Science is a path, what we think of as “truth” today may be disproved tomorrow. We must not stop questioning in science, if we stopped questioning then we would still think the world flat and that God personally tossed down lightning bolts.



Now I do think that science is on the correct path with evolution, the big bang, and the like, but to get closer to what really happened and when we must continue to question.

The bible does agree with science.

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Well, the Bible agrees with science just about the way it agrees with my Chilton’s book on how to fix a Ford Bronco II.



The Bible covers spirituality and man’s journey in trying to understand God, it has little to do with anything outside that realm.



My Chilton book deals with fixing my Bronco.



Science deals with how the universe works.



Currently all three subjects do not interact, but someday, in the far future, we might learn enough about God and the universe and Ford Bronco II’s to interconnect them… But for now I’ll let the three be separate.

Evolution is something we can plainly observe with the transition from wolves to domestic dogs. Same **** thing. That is evolution. That is how god created life. That is the function god gave to life. All of this should also tell you that nothing eludes Gods ultimate plan, whatever that is, as who knows all, and is all. Everything was created, and started, and ends with god.

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I can partially agree with this, no real problems.

One more thing, satan in the garden of eden was not a snake. The term serpent means figure of light. Not a snake.

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I would have to disagree, I think the snake in the story was meant to be a snake, that is why one of the punishments was the removal of its legs. One way of explaining why snakes didn’t have legs like all other lizards at a time when evolution was not known.



In the context of a story it makes sense, and as long as you are not trying to force it to be literal history, it does not matter that there is a talking snake representing temptation. It is the same as not worrying about the fact that the mustard seed is not the “least” of all seeds because the message that Jesus was trying to get across is true whether or not the mustard seed stuff is true.

You must use the terminology from that day if you are to completely understand scripture.

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I couldn’t agree more, and if I might add something to this…



One must also remember the surroundings and times when these things were written, the influences that the surrounding kingdoms and peoples had on the Hebrews. You can see some of the things adopted by them from the legends of the people around them and incorporated into the Bible.



Noah’s flood is a retelling of the earlier flood legend found in the Gilgamesh stories.



Genesis 1 through 2:3 is much like parts of the Babylonian creation story (Enuma Elish) and the Egyptian creation story.



These older legends were re-told with a more Jewish spin and morals added.

Now, go out and research for yourself to find the evidance supporting or shooting down my prospective of the truth.

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Good day. By the way, I am only 14. I think I might write a book soon...

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I am impressed, you have been digging pretty deep in the philosophical side of your existence for a fourteen year old.



I wish you luck on the book, from one wanna-be author to another.

lewiswildermuth:
In Genesis 1 through Genesis 2:3, creation is six days long with a seventh day of rest for a total of seven days.



Genesis 2:4 through 2:25 there is a second creation story that takes place in just one day.



There are many references to a single day creation and a multiple day creation scattered through the rest of the Bible.



So it appears that even during the writing of the Bible there were several competing ideas about how God created and how long it Him

..Not true.

The second usage of the word day mentioned above is set up with the word "the".
That is THE DAY. Keep in mind that the word day is not bracketed with evening and morning as in the first usage.

The second usage is meant to be a unit of time. To help you out, think of it like this.
If I said in THE DAY of George Washington the USA was forming.....you would not conclude that America was established in a single day, yet you have established that the creation took one day.

God knows all, past and present, and started it knowing the outcome. He knew of Satans future betrayal and all that. He knows all.

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lewis.... I’m not sure this is true, God may have made a universe that he was not sure of the individual outcome for every thing in it.

I can understand how you could arrive at this conclusion. That is from your post you seem to indicate great doubt in what the bible says.

Do you not believe the portions of the bible that shows us how God is omniscience?

Actually, omniscience and omnipotence MAY not contradict this. I am not saying this for sure, not at all, but it is a difficult question.

If I want to, I can throw a dice and not know what result it will come up with. However, this does not negate my power to place the dice down in a certain way or to weight it to ensure in lands a certain way, effectively my 'knowing the future'. It is a very interesting philosophical question as to whether an omnipotent, omniscient God can CHOOSE not to know something. Does His having to know something mean he is not actually omnipotent, as there is something He cannot do - i.e. He cannot not know something. Or if He can choose to set something up for which He deliberately does not know the outcome does that then mean is not omniscient?

masterfro said:

After reading the first two, and 5+ chapters of the enuma elish tablets, I sit pondering. I know not exactly what is going on, with missing pieces and all, but from what I can gather, there is a war in heaven, with satan and his angels (or what they call gods).

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Don't try to put this into a Christian theology. Take it on its own.

Now, what are the first two Babylonian gods? Tiamet and Apsu. What are they? They are sweetwater and saltwater. In other words, they are the waters. Now, what is the second of God's creative acts in Genesis 1? God separates the waters. That is, God makes sweetwater and saltwater! That means Tiamet and Apsu can't be gods. You can't be a god if you are created by another being. Gods either just exist or they are the offspring of gods. Not created by some other deity. And, in the Babylonian worldview, sweetwater and saltwater are gods. It is not that they are "gods of", but that sweetwater and saltwater is an essential part of being a god.

Now do you get it? Genesis 1 is paralleling the Enuma Elish and each "god" is being created. Look at the creation of plants and then the sun. Marduk is the god of agricultural plants (herbs). The sun goddess is Marduk's younger sister. So Genesis 1 has God create plants first because Marduk is older. Then create the sun.

Genesis 1 isn't so much about "creation" as we think of it historically and scientifically, but about destroying the Babylonian gods. That to the people of the time was "creation".

Ark Guy said:

Do you not believe the portions of the bible that shows us how God is omniscience?

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Ark Guy, show us the portions of the Bible where it says God is omniscient. What I have seen are parts showing God is very knowing. But "very knowing" and omniscient are two different things. I submit that "omniscient" is a human theory about God and not something the Bible says explicitly.

Ark Guy said:

The second usage of the word day mentioned above is set up with the word "the".
That is THE DAY. Keep in mind that the word day is not bracketed with evening and morning as in the first usage.

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Ark Guy, go back to the Hebrew. The word is 'beyom". The prefix 'be" modifies "yom" (day) so that it means a period of time within 24 hours. As you have noted in another thread, in Genesis 2:17 the same "beyom" doesn't mean a long period of time. Adam died spiritually when he ate the fruit.

The second usage is meant to be a unit of time. To help you out, think of it like this.
If I said in THE DAY of George Washington the USA was forming.....you would not conclude that America was established in a single day, yet you have established that the creation took one day.

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But you are not using the Hebrew here. Sorry, when you want to use one of these, you have to go back to the original language.

masterfro said:

This site is very helpful. I read all 12 chapters over a couple of days:
ht tp://w ww.ge ocities.c om/truedino/

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Here we go again. Trying to counter YEC propaganda and bad science.

First, let's see where this guy is coming from. Is he really just evaluating scientific evidence? Does he view evolution as a way God created?

No.

"The information on Creation Science vs. Evolution will be a real eye opener. The media, public education, and Hollywood are the leading propagandists of our time putting forth a "atheistic evolutionary secular humanist world view" diametrically opposed to the "Judeo-Christian world view". The former world view has enslaved and destroyed many a nation while the latter world view when properly responded to and with proper checks and balances in the nation has brought blessing from God."

This guy is fighting the atheism vs theism fight with evolution being atheism. Therefore it is all wrong for this forum, where everyone is a theist.

Look, if he wants to fight atheism, that's fine. But EVOLUTION IS NOT ATHEISM!! Never has been. As to destroying nations, it's too bad this guy's memory is so short. Charlemagne destroyed the Saxons from a Christian worldview. Look at the Reformation Wars and list the number of nations that were destroyed and enslaved during them.

I think the views expressed about the bible are very sound. Most of what he believes doesn't seem to controdict the bible at all. Now, on the subject of evolution. It really isn't important to know wether or not animals evolve, but rather to build a solid relationship with god is the most important thing. However, I always like to be sure what I know is actualy truth. Does evolution really contredict what the bible says? How is it really unbiblical? Hmmm. Just got a thought. In genesis, it says that the sea creatures were created, followed by land creatures, then flying animals right?

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Nope. Genesis 1:20-23 has sea creatures and flying creatures created at the same time. Only the next day are land creatures created.

Is that the right order?

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No. For animals, it is sea animals, land animals, and then flying animals. Also, whales are created before land animals, yet we know whales evolved from land mammals so that the land mammals had to come first.

Scientists say it takes what... millions of years for evolution, and they say that animals started evolving in that same order?

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The history of life goes back 3.8 billion years. That is when we have the first fossils of microorganisms.

If you read what that website says about the conditions before the flood, and how the conditions made life far superior, i think you could make a plausible connection. Now, it is really important you read the first few chapters of the website above to see where im coming from. What if the animals that existed before the flood had a highly sped up evolution timetable?

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Wow! That's evolution on steroids! How long ago does he say the Flood happened? 4,000 years, with just 2,000 years before that.

The preflood conditions might have allowed that to happen. Creation the same way genesis explains it. But, animals wouldnt evolve like that today because of the harsh conditions that plague our planet after the flood. Does all that sound right?

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Ask is using Baugh's metallic hydrogen canopy. However, he states that the temperature is -130 to -180 fahrenheit. But then he states that you need "cryogenic" conditions for this metallic hydrogen. The problem is that cryogenic conditions are near absolute zero. This is about -459 degrees Fahrenheit! It's not nearly cold enough for metallic hydrogen! http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/012992.html

The rest of the website has similar errors. Baugh's work is so notoriously bad that even other creationist organizations won't touch it. Answers in Genesis www.answersingenesis.org says it is wrong.

"How does a creation scientist and an evolutionary scientist look at the same physical data and yet come to entirely different conclusions? The answer lies in the bias and the model being used to interpret the present world and how it originated. "

He ignores that creationism was the accepted scientific theory from 1700-1831. If bias were all there was to it, then why did scientists (who were biased toward creationism and looked at the evidence that way) change their minds? Remember, all these scientists at the time were Christians. Most of them were ministers. Reading the literature of those scientists -- Werner, Jameson. Buckland, Smith, etc -- you can see that they simply assumed Noah's Flood happened. They didn't question it. They looked at all evidence through that bias. Yet they changed their minds. Buckland was all for Noah's Flood in 1820 when he wrote his Reliquae Diluviae. By 1832 he was admitting the Flood never happened and that it did not cause the very geological features his book had said it did cause. Rev. Buckland remained a staunch Christian.

What happened, of course, was the evidence. Ask simply has it wrong about how science is done and how scientists evaluate the evidence. It's a nice conspiracy theory, but that is all it is. It is not reality.

Now, are we going to have to walk you thru page by page the refutation Ask's website or can we just point you to some credible sources to read?

Here is a site for metallic hydrogen. It forms at 5 degrees Kelvin or about -450 degrees Fahrenheit. BUT, it also requires a lot of pressure to form. Baugh's model doesn't have any way to exert the pressure since one side of the shell is open to space! http://www-phys.llnl.gov/H_Div/GG/metalhydrofact.html