Gentiles? Not Anymore!

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
Let's be as clear as I have been from the beginning. Yahshua rebuked those who put the Talmud over the Torah.

That's not possible. There was no Talmud for anyone to put over the Torah.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
The oral law is the Mishna, is the Talmud. Let's not split hairs here. You know what I'm taking about. Many who don't know what the Mishna is, know of the Talmud.

It's not splitting hairs. The Mishnah isn't the Talmud. The Talmud is the Mishnah AND Gemara, the Mishnah is the Mishnah.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't see "Christ's holy and catholic Church" anywhere in the Bible.

And you're accusing me of splitting hairs?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Peter was sent to Cornelius after receiving his vision correcting his understanding of the Gospel "for all nations". Why would Cornelius NOT be welcomed? He was already a friend of Israel, and not just politically, he was a devout man.

It was claimed that Cornelius converted to Judaism. Cornelius did not convert to Judaism, he converted to Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

Minister Monardo · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
The point was to clarify history.

-CryptoLutheran

You also said:
Let's also be clear that what Jesus took issue with was not Jewish tradition and practice, but with the abuses of religion; the taking of tradition or practice against the intent of God's purposes, loving justice and mercy, and the use of religion as a wedge and a cudgel.

I was under the impression that clarification of what Yeshua did or did not oppose was at issue.
Specifically, Matthew 15:
3He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Whether this was a written codification, or oral tradition at this point in history, it sounds like they considered it legal. Yeshua seems to disagree.

Minister Monardo · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
It was claimed that Cornelius converted to Judaism. Cornelius did not convert to Judaism, he converted to Christianity.

I made no such claim

HARK! · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
It's not splitting hairs. The Mishnah isn't the Talmud. The Talmud is the Mishnah AND Gemara, the Mishnah is the Mishnah.

The Bible includes the gospels and the TaNaK. The gospels are the Bible; but the Bible isn't, say ...Mark. The gospels were the gospels before they were written down.

I hope this helps.

HARK! · May 3, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
And you're accusing me of splitting hairs?

That combination of words makes implications of which I don't subscribe to. It's not in the Bible. I don't subscribe to the implication.

ViaCrucis · May 4, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
You also said:
Let's also be clear that what Jesus took issue with was not Jewish tradition and practice, but with the abuses of religion; the taking of tradition or practice against the intent of God's purposes, loving justice and mercy, and the use of religion as a wedge and a cudgel.

I was under the impression that clarification of what Yeshua did or did not oppose was at issue.
Specifically, Matthew 15:
3He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Whether this was a written codification, or oral tradition at this point in history, it sounds like they considered it legal. Yeshua seems to disagree.

There are many who mistakenly think Jesus had a problem with Jewish traditions, because He condemns the use of some traditions as a means of wielding a religious cudgel.

That is to say, I simply don't believe it's right to say that Jesus has a problem with the body of tradition which was widely accepted among the rabbis. Jesus actively engages the rabbinic world, and echoes rabbis and sages who came before, such as Hillel the Elder. When the Lord taught, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this is the whole of the Law and the Prophets" He is echoing Hillel the Elder who said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor, this the entire Torah, everything else is commentary,"

Further, Jesus was actively attending synagogue. He observed Hannukah, etc.

As such those who want to argue that Jesus was wholesale anti-rabbinic tradition are simply mistaken.

So these were my two points: Properly understanding what the Talmud actually is, and also that attacking the entire body of Jewish tradition (such as that which was written down and compended in the Babylonian Talmud) is not an accurate representation of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels.

Since the Judaizers wish to argue that Christians are under compulsion to observe the Torah (or at the very least those particular parts of the Torah that have been arbitrarily cherry-picked), and thus often instead turn to claiming that when the New Testament speaks of the Torah no longer being applicable under Christ, they argue instead that it's the Talmud being addressed. Thus the dividing line between Jew and Gentile, literally present in the form of the barrier between the court of the Gentiles from the rest of the Temple in Jerusalem; and the figurative barrier between the ritually pure and the ritually unclean isn't found through the Torah--even though it is precisely the Torah that demarcates between the clean and the unclean for the religio-cultural purposes of ancient Israel and God's Covenant with them. Thus, Torah must be observed, and obviously the problem was just the traditions of the rabbis, as ultimately expressed in the Babylonian Talmud; even though that's obviously not the case. Jesus doesn't wholesale attack rabbinic tradition, Jesus rebukes religious hypocrisy and religious abuse, not religious tradition. Jesus doesn't rebuke the Pharisees for observing the traditions of rabbis, Jesus rebukes those Pharisees who used their status for vanity, acted hypocritically, and used religion as a tool to hurt the vulnerable.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · May 4, 2020

HARK! said:
The Bible includes the gospels and the TaNaK. The gospels are the Bible; but the Bible isn't, say ...Mark. The gospels were the gospels before they were written down.

I hope this helps.

There was no The Gospel according to St. Mark until it was written down. The stories contained in the gospel texts existed before the texts were written, yes. But Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not exist until they were written.

-CryptoLutheran

Minister Monardo · May 4, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
There are many who mistakenly think Jesus had a problem with Jewish traditions, because He condemns the use of some traditions as a means of wielding a religious cudgel.

This is the second time I am reading this expression you have coined, "wielding a religious cudgel."
Sounds a bit dramatic. Would this be an example?
Matthew 23:4-7.But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
This sounds like basic human vanity. Surely humans aren't expected to not be human.
Matthew 23:8-11. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Why is it this sounds so familiar? Has anything really changed? Wait for it.
Here comes Messiah's Cudgel.
Matthew 23:12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

ViaCrucis said:
That is to say, I simply don't believe it's right to say that Jesus has a problem with the body of tradition which was widely accepted among the rabbis. Jesus actively engages the rabbinic world, and echoes rabbis and sages who came before, such as Hillel the Elder. When the Lord taught, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, this is the whole of the Law and the Prophets" He is echoing Hillel the Elder who said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor, this the entire Torah, everything else is commentary,"

Anyone should see that "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor, this the entire Torah, everything else is commentary," IS commentary, and is not even close to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Unless you think what Yeshua was teaching is "just leave each other alone and you will do fine". Not being hateful=Love your neighbor only in the mind that is still eating heartily from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. No Tree of Life here.
"Jesus actively engages the rabbinic world, and echoes rabbis and sages who came before, such as Hillel the Elder." This is the first time you flat out make something up in this post, we'll see if its the last.

ViaCrucis said:
Further, Jesus was actively attending synagogue. He observed Hannukah, etc.

Hanukkah? "actively attending synagogue"? According to the Gospel's, more like making cameo appearances. He got dragged from the synagogue in Nazareth to the edge of town to be thrown from a precipice. That was active. [Luke 4:29]

ViaCrucis said:
As such those who want to argue that Jesus was wholesale anti-rabbinic tradition are simply mistaken.

Keep reading Matthew 23. Wholesale? More like Fire Sale.

ViaCrucis said:
So these were my two points: Properly understanding what the Talmud actually is, and also that attacking the entire body of Jewish tradition (such as that which was written down and compended in the Babylonian Talmud) is not an accurate representation of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels.

Previously you said:"That's not possible. There was no Talmud for anyone to put over the Torah."
Now you say we must properly understand what the Talmud actually is to accurately depict Jesus in the Gospels. If there was no Talmud, their teaching by any other name remains leaven.
Matthew 16:6. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

ViaCrucis said:
Jesus doesn't wholesale attack rabbinic tradition, Jesus rebukes religious hypocrisy and religious abuse, not religious tradition. Jesus doesn't rebuke the Pharisees for observing the traditions of rabbis, Jesus rebukes those Pharisees who used their status for vanity, acted hypocritically, and used religion as a tool to hurt the vulnerable.

Okay, to be fair, we should point out all the good things He said about them...

ViaCrucis said:
Since the Judaizers

So that is what this is really about? I'll stay out of that name calling circle dance for now. I thought the OP was No Gentiles in Christ. Is that Juda-sizing? Since you ignored my other post, I repeat.
I was under the impression that clarification of what Yeshua did or did not oppose was at issue.
Specifically, Matthew 15:
3He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
Whether this was a written codification, or oral tradition at this point in history, it sounds like they considered it legal. Yeshua seems to disagree.

expos4ever · May 4, 2020

Ro 7:25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

At first glance, this text does suggest the Law is still in effect. But there are compelling reasons to believe otherwise. The prime reason is the overall context of chapter 7 together with the first part of chapter 8. The progression is this:

- In Romans 7, Paul describes how while he delights in the Law of God, he also struggles with sin (as per 7:25, quoted above);
- At the end of 7 and on into 8, Paul makes it patently clear that he, having accepted Jesus, has escaped from that state. Dear reader, I invite you to take 2 minutes and read the last half of 7 and on into 8.

So why does Paul use the present tense in the verse quoted from 7, above? I suggest that it is because he is commiserating with the status of his fellow Jew - the one who rejects Christ and still struggles with sin under the law. There is evidence in Romans 9 that Paul this may be what Paul is doing.

In any event, and as always, those who think the Law remains in force still have to explain this:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code

HARK! · May 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
At first glance, this text does suggest the Law is still in effect.

Good call. Nuff said.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

expos4ever · May 4, 2020

I will remind reader that this statement:

Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall

...from Jesus may not have been intended to be taken literally. There is both Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such "end-of-the-world" language is often used metaphorically to refer to significant events in the here and now.

In short, there is every reason to believe that Jesus is not saying that the Law will remain in force until heaven and earth pass away. More on this shortly.

Der Alte · May 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
I will remind reader that this statement:
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall
...from Jesus may not have been intended to be taken literally. There is both Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that such "end-of-the-world" language is often used metaphorically to refer to significant events in the here and now.
In short, there is every reason to believe that Jesus is not saying that the Law will remain in force until heaven and earth pass away. More on this shortly.

A commentary on this point. In '95 my job moved me to Orange County CA about 19 miles from Disney land. While getting cable installed my wife said to the the installer, "You have a good voice you should use it for the glory of God." He said "I do I'm the cantor at my synagogue." His synagogue was messianic Jewish. He still observed many of the OT feasts etc. not as a requirement of the law but a celebration of his Jewish heritage.
His night job was the radio voice of the San Diego Chargers.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
At first glance, this text does suggest the Law is still in effect. But there are compelling reasons to believe otherwise. The prime reason is the overall context of chapter 7 together with the first part of chapter 8. The progression is this:

- In Romans 7, Paul describes how while he delights in the Law of God, he also struggles with sin (as per 7:25, quoted above);
- At the end of 7 and on into 8, Paul makes it patently clear that he, having accepted Jesus, has escaped from that state. Dear reader, I invite you to take 2 minutes and read the last half of 7 and on into 8.

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 7

Continued from: Romans Chapter 6

Romans 7 (CLV)
1 Or are you ignorant, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know law),

Paul is after all a lawyer.
When a lawyer is speaking legalese; a layman might think that he knows what a lawyer is telling him in plain English; but if he looks up the terms in a Black's Law dictionary; he might find that the Lawyer meant something very much different. In the last chapter we found that Paul uses the word "law" to define many aspects of different types of law which conflict with each other.

When Paul speaks of "the law;" which law is he talking about, the law we are not under, the law which we are to sustain, the law which is written on our hearts, the law Messiah frees us from, or something else?

that the law is lording it over a man for as much time as he is living?

The Law of Sin and Death

2 For a woman in wedlock is bound to a living man by law. Yet if the man should be dying, she is exempt from the law of the man." 3 Consequently, then, while the man is living, she will be styled an adulteress if she should be becoming another man's, yet, if the man should be dying, she is free from the law, being no adulteress on becoming another man's."

Free from the Law of Sin and Death. She is no longer the slave of Satan. She can then remarry into a covenant of life.

The Law of Life

(CLV) Ro 8:2
for the spirit's law of life in Christ Yahshua frees you from the law of sin and death.

Yahshua follows YHWH's law, the Torah. Yahshua call us to follow him in Torah.

4 So that, my brethren, you also were put to death to the law

The Law of Sin and Death

through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, Who is roused from among the dead,

The Law of Life

that we should be bearing fruit to God."

Obedience to the Torah is the fruit of faith.

5 For, when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, operated in our members to be bearing fruit to Death."

The Law of Sin and Death

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

6 Yet now we were exempted from the law, dying in that in which we were retained,

The law of Sin and Death

so that it is for us to be slaving in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter."

The Law of Faith

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

7 What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law.

Torah

For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting." 8 Now Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, produces in me all manner of coveting. For apart from law Sin is dead."

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

Trangression of the law (Torah).

9 Now I lived, apart from law, once, yet at the coming of the precept Sin revives. Yet I died, 10 and it was found that, to me, the precept for life, this is for death." 11 For Sin, getting an incentive through the precept, deludes me, and through it, kills me."

Spirit warring against the flesh.

12 So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good."

Torah

13 Became good, then, death to me? May it not be coming to that!

The Law of Sin and Death is bad.

But Sin, that it may be appearing Sin, is producing death to me through good

The Law of Life

Reborn in Yahshua

, that Sin may become an inordinate sinner through the precept." 14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin." 15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing." 16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."

Paul continues to speak of the spirit warring against the flesh. The ideal law is obviously not The Law of Sin and Death.

17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me." 18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not." 19 For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice." 20 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

The war continues.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

21 Consequently, I am finding the law that, at my willing to be doing the ideal, the evil is lying beside me." 22 For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

Torah

23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Here we have some new laws. The Law of My Mind and The Law of Sin.

Leave to a lawyer to come up with so many nebulous laws.

24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace! 25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law."

Slaving for YHWH's Law..... These don't strike me as the words of someone who is not under YHWH's Law.

The Law of YHWH (Torah) wars with The Law of Sin.

Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Romans Chapter 8

Continued.....

HARK! · May 4, 2020

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 8

Continued from: Romans Chapter 7

Romans 8 (CLV)
1 Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, 2 for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

Notice the word consequently. This passage is a conclusion, predicated on the scripture that we have read thus far.

I hadn't noticed it, until I started dissecting this book for understanding; but Paul has a very interesting way of making his points. Up until now he has, for the most part, been defining his point. He lays out the definitions, without laying out the terms first. It has taken him seven preceding chapters, to bring us to the terms of his point.

Paul has revealed two more laws in this chapter.

There are two laws here. Some see the word law, in this letter; and are indoctrinated to believe that it could mean only one thing; that the Torah is abolished. One can't even understand the writings of Paul without understanding the Torah. He said so himself in chapter seven.

Following one of these laws leads to life.

Following the other leads to death.

For those who misunderstand Paul in saying that were not under THE law; which of these two laws do you suppose is according to YHWH's will?

You will choose one. That is the only choice you have. We are either under one law or another. We are all under A law.

Which of these two laws would you suppose is in line with obedience to YHWH's law (Torah) which Yahshua followed; as he told us to follow his example?

3 For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

The Law of Sin and Death

4 that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit."

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

5 For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh,

The Law of Sin and Death

yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit."

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

6 For the disposition of the flesh is death,

The Law of Sin and Death

yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." 8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

The Law of Sin and Death

If you are in the flesh; you are hostile to YHWH. If you are in the flesh; you will not obey his Torah; nor are you able. The Ruach Ha'Kodesh leads us out of the flesh, through circumcision of the heart.

9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you.

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His."

The Law of Sin and Death

10 Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness."

What is Righteousness?

Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you."

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

12 Consequently, then, brethren, debtors are we, not to the flesh, to be living in accord with flesh, 13 for if you are living in accord with flesh, you are about to be dying.

The Law of Sin and Death

Yet if, in spirit, you are putting the practices of the body to death, you will be living." 14 For whoever are being led by God's spirit, these are sons of God." 15 For you did not get slavery's spirit to fear again, but you got the spirit of sonship, in which we are crying, "Abba, Father!" 16 The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that we are children of God. 17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"

The Law of Sin and Death

21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now. 23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body." 24 For to expectation were we saved. Now expectation, being observed, is not expectation, for what anyone is observing, why is he expecting it also? 25 Now, if we are expecting what we are not observing, we are awaiting it with endurance." 26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings." 27 Now He Who is searching the hearts is aware what is the disposition of the spirit, for in accord with God is it pleading for the saints." 28 Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose" 29 that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren." 30 Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." 31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all? 33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier? 34 Who is the Condemner? Christ Jesus, the One dying, yet rather being roused, Who is also at God's right hand, Who is pleading also for our sakes? 35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 According as it is written that "On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter." 37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."

The Law of Faith
The Law of God (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

Hallelu YAH!

Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)

Roman Chapter 9

HARK! · May 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
the one who rejects Christ and still struggles with sin under the law.

"Under the law"

Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

It's found 11 times in his writings.

Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear our loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

==================================================
(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Which law?

Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.

(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

The Law of YHWH does.
==================================================
(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;

The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.

(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.

(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.

(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.

(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

==================================================

(CLV) Ga 3:19
What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.

(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

(CLV) Ga 3:21
Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.

YHWH's law is not against grace.

(CLV) Ga 3:22
But the scripture locks up all together under sin,

...because all have sinned.

The Law of Sin

that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.

(CLV) Ga 3:23
Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.

If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

Reclaiming them from what?

Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:

(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================

(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?

Let's look at this verse in a little more context.

(CLV) Ga 5:16
Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.

What is the lust of the flesh?

Here are some examples:

(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.

Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.

(CLV) Ro 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.

(CLV) Jn 16:7
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.

(CLV) Jn 16:8
And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
righteousness and concerning judging:

(CLV) Jn 16:9
concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

HARK! · May 4, 2020

expos4ever said:
There is evidence in Romans 9 that Paul this may be what Paul is doing.

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9

Continued from: Romans Chapter 8

Romans 9 (CLV)

1 The truth am I telling in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifying together with me in holy spirit, 2 2 That my sorrow is great, and unintermittent pain is in my heart -" 3 for I myself wished to be anathema from Christ - for my brethren, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, whose is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the legislation and the divine service and the promises;" 5 whose are the fathers, and out of whom is the Christ according to the flesh, Who is over all, God be blessed for the eons. Amen!" 6 Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;" 7 neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called." 8 That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed." 9 For the word of the promise is this: At "this seasonI shall come "and there will be for Sarah a son." 10 Yet, not only so, but Rebecca also is having her bed of one, Isaac, our father." 11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling, 12 it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior, 13 According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate." 14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!" 15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying." 16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." 17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth." 18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening." 19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention? 20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus? 21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? 22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction, 23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -" 24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also." 25 As He is saying in Hosea also: I shall be calling those who are not My people "My people,And she who is not beloved "Beloved, 26 And it shall be, in the place where it was declared to them, 'Not My people are you,'There "they shall be called 'sons of the living God.'" 27 Now Isaiah is crying over Israel, If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue shall be saved, 28 for "a conclusive and concise accounting the Lord will be doing on the earth." 29 And according as Isaiah declared before, "Except the Lord of hosts conserved us a seed, As Sodom would we become, And to Gomorrah would we be likened."

Paul demonstrates that just as Abraham didn't recieve YHWH's favor through bloodline; but through faith; so it is today, for all who are called to hear and, in faith, submit to his commands.

The Covenant is extended to all now; as it has be been since Abraham.

30 What, then, shall we be declaring? That the nations who are not pursuing righteousness overtook righteousness, yet a righteousness which is out of faith."

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

The Law of Faith
God's Law (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

Paul has added another law, to this letter, in this chapter:

The Law of Righteousness

Letting one's pride withdraw the honor due to YHWH. It's not unlike elevating one's self above the Father.

The Law of Righteousness
The Law of Sin and Death

It should be pointed out here that the stumbling stone isn't the keeping of the Torah. The righteous keep the law (Torah); but they do it through faith in YHWH. The stumbling block is believing that it is through your power, not YHWH's; that your salvation comes from your own works (The Law of Righteousness) . Yahshua gave all the glory to YHWH. It was YHWH working through him that performed the miracles. Yahshua set the example for us.

Hallelu YAH! Hallelu Yahshua!

Legal Terms:

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Romans Chapter 10

expos4ever · May 5, 2020

HARK! said:
Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 9
.....
Continued from: Romans Chapter 8.....

Paul demonstrates that just as Abraham didn't recieve YHWH's favor through bloodline; but through faith; so it is today, for all who are called to hear and, in faith, submit to his commands.

Where, and please be specific, does Paul say anywhere in Romans 9 that anyone, Jew or Gentile, is supposed to continue following the Law of Moses?

30 What, then, shall we be declaring? That the nations who are not pursuing righteousness overtook righteousness, yet a righteousness which is out of faith."

HARK! said:
What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

The Law of Faith
God's Law (Torah)
The Spirit's Law of Life

Only the least attentive of readers will not see what you are doing - you are bending a very general term - righteousness - to suit your agenda of forcing it to mean compliance with Torah. The term "righteousness" is, of course, much more general and does not require that we interpret it to always denote compliance with Torah.

Gentiles? Not Anymore!

Confessional Lutheran

Confessional Lutheran

Confessional Lutheran

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

שמע

Confessional Lutheran

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

שמע

שמע

שמע

שמע

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency