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Of course there was death before sin. Eating plants = plant death. The early Hebrews, not knowing any better, didn't think plants were actually alive, so this didn't occur to them.
Sure. Everyday observation. Here's a live plant:And I assume that you actually have some source to back this wild assertion up?
I never called them stupid. But what exactly constitutes "life" doesn't seem to be something they thought much of. Consider this: why did Adam need to eat if he wasn't originally susceptible to death?They weren't as stupid or ignorant as you make them out to be.
Great! Now comes the part where you take your own advice: what evidence do you have support this wild assertion? What constitutes God's mysterious boundary between life and death? Why is it okay for, say, plants to die, and cells to exhibit programmed cell death, in light of the Bible's revelation that there was "no death" before the Fall?I believe that there is a certain type of "death" which isn't considered "death" by God. The death of some cells, for example, has to happen for humans to fully form.
But... it WAS written by man -- from man's own errant perspective, even. I know you're new here, but we've clubbed that dead horse enough. Please see the archives.You also riddle the Bible with mockery by in effect claiming that it is only written by man and not by God.
Mallon said:Sure. Everyday observation.
Mallon said:But... it WAS written by man -- from man's own errant perspective, even. I know you're new here, but we've clubbed that dead horse enough. Please see the archives.
I trust you believe that the Bible is inspired by God? In fact, the apostle Paul in his second letter to young Timothy says clearly that the Bible is "God-breathed". Now, the Bible was physically written by man, probably written in people's own style, but the message is God-inspired. If it is not accurate on earthly things, then on what logical basis are you to believe its message when it speaks about heavenly things?
I also highly doubt that you've proven that the Bible is not "God-breathed" or that the Bible is not inerrant.
I'll deal with the other part later as I've got to go now.
1) You are saying that there was no physical death before the Fall.lol, I can't believe that you misunderstood what I was asking proof of. Do you have a source that the Hebrews didn't know that plants were living?
It ISN'T entirely accurate on earthly matters. The earth is not flat, the atmosphere doesn't contain windows and the smallest seed isn't from the mustard plant. That hardly negates the truths spoken about our Lord, however. As shernren said, the Bible was written to teach us of spiritual matters -- so why should we be taken aback when it occasionally faulters on earthly ones? My trust is in the infallibility of God; not the Bible.Now, the Bible was physically written by man, probably written in people's own style, but the message is God-inspired. If it is not accurate on earthly things, then on what logical basis are you to believe its message when it speaks about heavenly things?
Which raises a question I have been wonder about recently. Given that Job is built on monologues, is the book of Job actually a play?even a deus ex machina. He sets the stage by brutally confronting Job on the power of His moral justice, and then He pulls up the curtain to reveal ...
Which raises a question I have been wonder about recently. Given that Job is built on monologues, is the book of Job actually a play?
Interesting idea it certainly works with Leviathan which is an apocalyptic theme running through the OT. But behemoth? That comes from behemah, a beast or dumb animal. Certainly we have in the OT the concept of angelic cherubim, both good and bad (Ezek 28) and the cherubim like their Babylonian equivalents have animal features. But the word used to describe this is chai, living creatures, rather than behema or behemoth.
Ok I've just checked the LXX and the Greek word used is θηρίον 'Beast' which might link in with Apocalyptic beasts in the Greek scriptures, esp Revelation. But that is really pushing it. The ethymological flow seems to be going the wrong direction.
Which raises a question I have been wonder about recently. Given that Job is built on monologues, is the book of Job actually a play?
I'm very surprised to hear a YEC say this, and I'm interested in knowing why you think this, mumluvsherboys. Despite all the killing they must do, homosexuality they sometimes express, and cannibalism some resort to, you still do not feel that animals are capable of sinning?I also do not believe animals are capable of sinning.
My whole problem with the entire question, although it is a very good one, is that we are not animals. We are human beings.
Animals live savagely, we do not... or we are not supposed to according to the word of God.
But they need to survive and God did make a perfect life cycle in order that they survive.
And you notice that our origins was not His focus. He knew so much and still he taught love. As that was the most important thing to know in the whole wide world.
I'm very surprised to hear a YEC say this, and I'm interested in knowing why you think this, mumluvsherboys. Despite all the killing they must do, homosexuality they sometimes express, and cannibalism some resort to, you still do not feel that animals are capable of sinning?
If that's the case, then what is your objection to animal death before the Fall, if such things are not sinful?
Sorry, I'm having a hard time deciphering your answer. Are you saying you do believe there was animal death before the Fall (since animal death isn't sinful)?I do not believe God gave animals the same laws as us or any law other than their own instinct or what we, as humans, teach them.
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