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I think he is still complaining that I refuse to assume creation week immediately followed the original creation. All the text tells us about that is it was, 'in the beginning'. The Genesis account emphasizes the creation of life, not the age of the earth.
I think he is still complaining that I refuse to assume creation week immediately followed the original creation. ....
Mark doesn't like the evolutionary part of science
Well "refuse" is the right word, but there's nothing to assume. The creation week is the beginning. Mark has been refuted on this in multiple forums, and definitely still refuses to be corrected by scripture. (I speak of him in the 3rd, because he refuses to dialog with me on this, though I'm open to a friendly exchange if he's willing.)
There is a move as of late, to revive the gap theory under different names such as historical creationism, and that's surely where he's getting most of his ideas.
In essence, they all attempt to separate the 6 day 'creation week' from the 'beginning.' The problem is, this is impossible. Christ tells us very plainly, Adam and Eve were made, not just during the creation week, but from the 'beginning.'
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God “made them male and female.’
If Adam and Eve were from the beginning, and they were created on the last day of creation, then creation week must be referring to the beginning.
Peter also believed the 'creation' week and 'the beginning' were the same thing. Here he implies the living dying process has been going on since the beginning.
2Pet. 3:4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
Paul also equated the creation of the world with the creation of man.
Rom. 1:120 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
There is no possible way to pull off this separation.
Scripture is clear, Adam was made in the beginning, not just at some time billions of years later toward the very end of the creation. Mark doesn't like the evolutionary part of science, but for some reason can't let go of the deep beliefs that go hand and hand with it. Scripture teaches a young earth. We just have to deal with it.
....That's called an equivocation fallacy, you are pretending the creation of the heavens and the earth and the creation of Adam are inextricably linked time wise. They are not the same, all we know about the creation of the heavens and the earth is it was in the beginning, the creation of Adam is another matter and no matter how hard you try to equivocate the two they are not the same thing.
No he didn't, you equivocated them. Paul just says the beginning with no reference to the time frame.
There is no separation to pull off, a text without a context is a pretext and your begging the question of proof on you hands and knees.
I still think your a TE sock puppet.
Reading through you post, I actually didn't see a response, just a dogmatic assertion that creation week doesn't start until verse 3 and some very poor attempts at insults which rolled off my back. I'll see if I can find a semblance of a response.
From the "beginning of creation" is not unclear. It's crystal clear. You may think the age of the earth is irrelevant, but this is what scripture teaches. I'm not willing to say which biblical truths are irrelevant, and which are not. Mankind is said to be created from the beginning of the creation of the world. You're saying scripture is not clear. I'm going to side with scripture.
The beginning of creation is a reference to time. Since the creation of the world, men have observed God's creation. You can either believe this or refuse to, but this statement makes it clear mankind is associated with the beginning of the world, not just the beginning of biological life.
Seems from here out, you ran out or responses and went back into insult mode. I'm disappointed. I thought you'd be a bit more thoughtful.
That's really not necessary, you don't have an argument.
Yes it is, the heavens and the earth were created, 'in the beginning', that's crystal clear.
his is nothing personal....
Actually the heavens and the earth and Adam and Eve, to be thorough.
It's between you and God. I don't pretend to know your motives.
Mark's says, "The heavens and the earth were created 'in the beginning', Adam and Eve were created 6000 years ago....."
Christ's says, Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mark's view: They could have been made at the beginning.
Christ's view: They were made at the beginning.
I'm going with Christ on this one.
Paul sides with Christ as well:
Rom. 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Mark's view: They could have been observing since the creation of the world.
Paul's view: They were observing since the creation of the world.
I think you get the point.
grace and peace
....He didn't say 'view creation' Paul said, 'since creation'. Again you have shamelessly
distorted the clear testimony of Scripture and there is no logical reason for this. What I have been saying isn't opposed to young earth creationism, neither does it support an old earth cosmology.
Wow, now you believe there are 2 creations. This just goes to show how the gap theory plays havoc on hermeneutics. I like that fact that gap theorists find ways to deal with the death before sin problem, but at the same time, the hermeneutical backflips they do render the Bible meaningless. It really becomes an anything goes hermeneutic and that's the real danger of it.
LOL. Now young earth creationism is shameful. I'm so glad you're no longer pretending to be a young earth creationist.
If you say that long ages are possible then yes it supports old earth creationism. Old earth creationists like Hugh Ross both claim scripture is silent about the age of the earth. You guys are virtually identical, though you arrive at your destinations by different routes.
But more importantly, you've distorted both Paul and Christ.
Paul is telling us that men are without excuse, as they have been observing creation since the beginning of creation (and there is only one creation). And Christ said Adam and Eve were made at the beginning of creation. There's no wiggle room on this.
They did not interpret the creation account the way you do. They didn't divide Gen. 1 into 2 creation accounts nor did they make a distinction between the creation week and the beginning. These are all creations of your own making.
And ironically, I'm at peace with my view and feel no need to mudsling with you.
...No matter how many ways you rehash the discussion you can't escape the fact that the original creation is 'in the beginning'.
Actually there are eight rounds of creation....
Clearly all we know about the original creation is that it was 'in the beginning',
but then you commit your ultimate error, you demand it of all believers.
Nonsense, Hugh Ross takes Genesis 1 and turns it into whatever he want's....
No sir, your the one who has made shallow, indefensible statements imposing your private interpretation on Genesis account and the New Testament witness. The only word you care about is 'beginning' and all you are doing with that is making it mean things the Scriptures never intended. Pedantic, shallow special pleading, with callous disregard for real world meaning. Shameful!
Paul is saying that 'since the creation', God's revelation has reached all mankind so that they are without excuse. That is before the Scriptures are ever encountered you know who God is and what God is like because God has shown it to you. Beginning is just a reference to creation but you have divorced the term for it's context so you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. A text without a context is a pretext and you have abandoned the clear testimony of Scripture in favor of your own private interpretation.
I rejected the document hypothesis, framework hypothesis, JEPD arguments ad infinitum ad nauseam
There is no need to sling mud but I would like to hit you in the face with a lemon meringue pie right now to stop you from making these awful fallacious errors.
LOL. "The original creation." Now I've heard it all.
Mark really? Of course we know more than that. We know that in the beginning, God made them male and female. We know that from the beginning of the creation of the world men have been without excuse based on observing God's creation. We know what days particular things in creation were made and that heaven and earth and all in them were made in the 6 days. Ex. 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them
This verse is what drove me from the gap theory to the day age theory.
I can only scratch my head and wonder where you got this. God allows all men a choice to believe what they want. I'm in no position to demand anything. I've argued with you in fact, about you excluding theistic evolutionists from the faith. I disagree with them, but if they have Christ, they are saved. In fact, I actually had to persuade you on this.
But I know what scripture says, and can easily pick apart your gap theory. Try as you will to make me into a meanie, I'm a very tolerant nice guy. But if you post something I believe to be in error, I will address it.
LOL. I actually commend Ross for at least moving from the gap theory, to the day age theory which at least does't decimate Ex. 20:11. I think both you and Hugh miss the mark, though.
So you believe anyone that interprets Mark 10:6 as saying that male and female were created at the beginning of creation are shameful? Sheesh Mark. Sure you're not getting just a bit emotional?
I have no idea what you just said here. Seriously I made an argument, and don't see a response to it at all.
So does Hugh Ross BTW.
I believe you. I can see you have a bit of a aggressive violent side. These debates just don't get me that agitated.
...We know that the 'heavens and the earth' were created 'in the beginning'. We know that the beginning of man was Adam.
We talked about this, that is a specific word, the first time it's used is not Gen 1:1 it's here:
made (H6213 עָשָׂה `asah ) the firmament (Gen 1:7)
The second time it's:
'fruit tree yielding (H6213) fruit after his kind' (Gen. 1:11)
No, Mark 10:6 doesn't say the heavens and the earth were created 6000 years ago and it doesn't say they weren't. ....
It really doesn't matter to me, I think your just trolling the topic anyway. .....
I think he is still complaining that I refuse to assume creation week immediately followed the original creation. All the text tells us about that is it was, 'in the beginning'. The Genesis account emphasizes the creation of life, not the age of the earth.
Jesus spoke of marriage (Adam and Eve) as "from the beginning".
Creation from Nothing:
Genesis 1 uses a special word to describe God's creation of the 'heavens and the earth' (Gen 1:1), life (Gen 1:21) and man (Used 3 times in Gen 1:27). That word is 'bara' (bara' Strong's H1254 בָּרָא ) the Hebrew Qal form means: To shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject).
The Hebrew word 'baw-raw' (H1254 בּרא bârâ') is used in the absolute sense and it means creation ex nihilo which means out of nothing, always in reference to God and mostly found in Genesis and Isaiah:
Created, Used 33 times: Gen:1:1, Gen:1:21, Gen:1:27 (3), Gen:2:3-4 (2), Gen:5:1-2 (3), Gen:6:7, Deu:4:32, Psa:89:12, Psa:102:18, Psa:104:30, Psa:148:5, Isa:40:26, Isa:41:20, Isa:42:5, Isa:43:1, Isa:45:7-8 (2), Isa:45:12, Isa:45:18 (2), Isa:48:7, Isa:54:16 (2), Jer:31:22, Eze:21:30, Eze:28:13, Eze:28:15, Mal:2:10 (Strong's)
If God created the sun and moon and stars before day 4, as you said, then where did He put them before day 2, because as of day 1 there was no stretched out heavens between the divided in two waters.Praise to the Lord from Creation
148 Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
Praise Him in the heights!
2 Praise Him, all His angels;
Praise Him, all His hosts!
3 Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all you stars of light!
4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
And you waters above the heavens!
5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For He commanded [בָּרָא bara'] and they were created/.
6 He also established them forever and ever;
He made a decree which shall not pass away.
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