Heaven is plural because in Hebrew cosmology, the sky was the 1st Heaven, Space was the 2nd heaven, and God's throne was the 3rd.
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Heaven is plural because in Hebrew cosmology, the sky was the 1st Heaven, Space was the 2nd heaven, and God's throne was the 3rd.Here's how I see it......
First off, I believe there were numerous heavenS and earth made during the process of creations..... as summarized and indicated in Genesis 2:4. Therefore, I think you need to look deeper than what you think you are seeing.
"THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH WHEN THEY WERE CREATED (from nothing = ex-nihilo) IN THE DAY THAT THE LORD GOD (Son) MADE (formed by hand) THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS,...."
Worshipping the Bible as indicated here is the only blasphemy being presented, and Ebia is not the one guilty of such an offense.I am sorry you have so much trouble understanding Scripture. Perhaps if you would quit blaspheming His Holy Word, He would allow you to understand a little of it.
Is that comment really necessary, when have I ever even intonated that I think Ouija or Tarot is acceptable or an appropriate way to understand God?
I believe that Scripture is the primary authority, but this is to be understood in light of scripture itself, as well as Tradition, Reason and Experience. This is commonly called the WesleyanQuadrilateral and is one way of showing Prima Scriptura.
I do not believe in Tarot or Ouija, and think that using such things to understand God to be completely abhorrent.
The verse does not say, "thou shalt use my Scripture only to know of the things I have done, if thou useth any other method of comprehending the things historical or scientific, thou hath transgressed my law!"
Yes, of course it was.Is that comment really necessary...
Heaven is plural because in Hebrew cosmology, the sky was the 1st Heaven, Space was the 2nd heaven, and God's throne was the 3rd.
I've every appreciation of scripture. It's your harmonisation of it that I have a problem with.
My problem with your harmonisation is that in order to make the facts of the two stories agree you've completely lost what each of the stories is about and how they achieve it. We were given two independent accounts, we should work with two independent accounts, each on its own terms.Then, either debate or run but don't get smart and personally attack other posters who disgaree with your religious assumption.
Now, do you have anything to refute? Or you have something that you did not understand in my post? If so, just list it down here and I will be more than happy to explain further. I understand your predicament.
Skywriting wrote -
If you wish to include "Tradition, Reason and Experience" then please provide scriptural support for such.
I'll start.
Tradition:
English Standard Version (©2001)
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Reasoning:
New Living Translation (©2007)
We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.
Experiences:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
All those who live on milk lack the experience to talk about what is right. They are still babies.
<snip>
Tradition - Paul was from the Pharisaic tradition, and employed it such. This is shown in his writings whereby he takes the traditions that he knew and saw them in the light of scripture (as I said, not on their own but with scripture). Tradition is an all-encompassing word for the hymns that have been written, sermons by people, prayers that have been used etc. and not just 'tradition' as in "we in this church do this in our service then this then this, because that's the way we've always done it."
Reason - The greatest commandment is this, that you love your God with all your heart strength soul and mind. We are commanded to Love God with our mind, put the intellect and understanding that God has given to use in a way to understand Him better and the world He has given us.
Experience - We are not to rely solely on personal experience, but this doesn't mean that personal experience plays no part. We gain wisdom and understanding from our experiences, those just between us and God, and those in day to day life in meeting people etc. These are gifts from God, and it is good to use them in understanding God and His world, be this in creating analogies to explain things that are somewhat complex or something else. Your quote itself talks about the goodness of experience and how they help us grow.
There is no reason to outright deny the place that these things have, but they are all secondary to scripture.
No, what you've done is take some scriptural statements about misuse of the three and ignored the scriptural narrative about proper use of the three. And thereby you have distorted the overall message of scripture.So then, I have specific scriptural warnings about these three and yet you use human reasoning to uphold their value.
I see your human reasoning backs up your views.
Yes, of course it was.
If you wish to include "Tradition, Reason and Experience" then please provide scriptural support for such.
I'll start.
Tradition:
English Standard Version (©2001)
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Reasoning:
New Living Translation (©2007)
We use God's mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.
Experiences:
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
All those who live on milk lack the experience to talk about what is right. They are still babies.
So the scriptures tell us to avoid human tradition, knock down human reasoning, and not to trust those who lack sufficient experience.
So what did you find?
Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
My problem with your harmonisation is that in order to make the facts of the two stories agree you've completely lost what each of the stories is about and how they achieve it. We were given two independent accounts, we should work with two independent accounts, each on its own terms.
It would be helpful for you to leave verse references so that people know what passages you're referring to.
I used the phrase "human reasoning" in the search function across the entire database It's plenty good enough for me.(By the way, why didn't you use the ESV for that one? Didn't have the word "reasoning", so it wasn't good enough for you?)
I am already searching through 31 translations.You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings
(in other words, Paul's experiences)
that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra-which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. (2Tim 3:10-11, ESV)
I find that the Bible itself refers to extra-biblical sources on historical matters. For example:
​​​​​​​​And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day. ​​​ (Josh 10:13, ESV)
Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel. (1Kgs 14:19, ESV)
Now the rest of the acts of Rehoboam and all that he did, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah? (1Kgs 14:29, ESV)
... for In him we live and move and have our being; as even some of your own poets have said, For we are indeed his offspring. (Acts 17:28, ESV)
It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, ... (Jude 1:14, ESV)
All these are extra-Biblical sources that the Bible happily refers its readers to. I think MrDave's case is proven by the Bible itself!
That's because the Bible is historically correct. But as to spiritual matters, I don't see it happening. Exceptions may include the experiences of christian leaders/teachers like Paul.the Bible itself refers to extra-biblical sources on historical matters.
No, what you've done is take some scriptural statements about misuse of the three and ignored the scriptural narrative about proper use of the three. And thereby you have distorted the overall message of scripture.
Skywriting wrote -
If you wish to include "Tradition, Reason and Experience" then please provide scriptural support for such.
Gen. 1:6-8 documents that the 1st Firmament or Heaven was made on the 2nd Day.
Gen. 2:4-5 documents that the 2nd and 3rd Heavens were made on the 3rd Day.
...<snip>
Gen.2 gives a brief overview for orientation purposes with no specific ties to particular days, then expands details for day 6.
1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. 5Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Thanks everyone for responses in my absence, I won't repeat them all, but count them as sufficient response for now
However in Post #33 you give several verses which all speak of abandoning scripture for reason etc.
I never support this, what I said was that scripture is the primary authority but we can use other things in a secondary place to help understand it. There is no verse which says this is wrong, what is said as wrong is using only these other things and not using scripture. By holding scripture as the primary authority I am not abandoning scripture, but using all that God has given to help understand God, which has been shown in several posts prior to this one to be perfectly legitimate and supported.
and what I found said your view was wrong about the value of
I already told you, the 3 heavens are different spheres of our Earth. No one in the Bible had any idea of "other worlds" whatever you mean by that.Gen. 1:6-8 documents that the 1st Firmament or Heaven was made on the 2nd Day.
Gen. 2:4-5 documents that the 2nd and 3rd Heavens were made on the 3rd Day.
ll Corinthians 12:2 documents that the Apostle Paul was caught up to the 3rd Heaven.
IOW, Scripture documents that there are 3 Heavens and you seem not to know about the other Worlds? Please read ll Peter 3:5-7, and explain why God spoke of the world that THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, which Perished. (Greek-Destroyed, Totally)
Tell us the fate of the Heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW, and explain where Christians will be when this happens. We both know that this World will be Burned, and you tell me Scripture does not speak of other Heavens or Worlds?
Read Revelation 21:1 and see if you can continue to deny Scripturally of other Worlds.
God Bless
I never accused you of abandoning scripture.
God must have spoken to you Himself on that topic.
I said:
and what I found said your view was wrong about the value of
experiences of man
human tradition
human reasoning
and I said feel free to oppose my findings with scripture if you wish.
I find your argument falls flat.
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