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MGBurke

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You said "Wow, look at all those fives...uh, but so what"? But that's what confuses me. What's the point of noticing the numerical value of Hebrew and Greek words if the numbers aren't supposed to mean something? And when two or more words have the same numerical value, what is that supposed to tell us? If the numerical value of Hebrew words are inspired, and corespondences between words are supposed to tell us things, it would seem unlikely that the G-d who inspired it all would be telling us He's dishonest--but then, why did He give His name the same numerical value as כָּזַב?
I've often heard believers say that there are no coincidences.
Are they right?
And if they are, what do all those fives mean?
And why do the Sacred Name and כָּזַב both add up to 26?
If they're wrong, and some or all of these things are coincedences, what's gematria all about, and what are we supppsed to learn from it?
(And if some things are coincidences, and some things aren't, how do we tell what is from what isn't?)
 
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daq

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The more important point is that it isn't what someone decides to ascribe to a number, but what the scripture teaches about any particular number in the plain surface text, (if indeed that is even the case with any numerical value).

I can say that there are twenty six weeks in half the year, and this is true, and the feasts take place in the first half of the year, so then, does twenty six maybe have something to do with time, or maybe the calendar also? Maybe, maybe not. Could it perhaps be likened to a coin with two faces on its two sides? What about "Render unto Caesar the things of Caesar, and render unto Elohim the things of Elohim"? Does that make sense in the symbolism? I would say yes. Does that make this interpretation the ultimate reality of the meaning of the number twenty six? That would not be absolute as far as I am concerned.

In other words, if you are going to try to interpret numbers through the use of gematria, everything you come up with should be compatible with the surface text of the scripture: otherwise it is merely your own imaginative invention. I am not totally against gematria but would suggest, (which I am sure you already know), that it is widely misused for private interpretations of the scripture.
 
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MGBurke

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And the lion is used as both a symbol of Christ (The Lion of Judah) and the devil (who roams the earth as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.) That isn't meant to imply there alike in anything more than the strength of the lion--I get that. But I don't get what you mean when you say "Wow, look at all those fives...uh, but so what"? Isn't gematria all about noticing things like all those fives, and deciphering what G-d means by it? I know it would seem unlikely that the G-d who inspired the Hebrew alphabet would be telling us He's dishonest by giving His name the same numerical value as כָּזַב, but shouldn't 26 mean something? And shouldn't the connection between G-d, lying, and other words that add up to 26 (taken together) mean something?
I've often heard believers say that there are no coincidences.
Are they right?
And if they are, what do all those fives mean?
And why do the Sacred Name, כָּזַב, and the other words that add up to 26 have that in common?
And if those who say there are no coincedences are wrong, and some or all of these things are coincedences, what's the point of gematria?
And finally, if some of these things are coincidences, and some aren't, how do we tell what is from what isn't? If anyone has any thoughts please reply. Thank you.
 
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MGBurke

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I'm new to this thread, and I didn't know your views on gematria, but I am interested in what you said. I deleted a double post, and couldn't find the one you were replying to here, so I thought that I accidentally deleted that too. While you were replying, I was reposting, and I'm sorry. But this time it wasn't entirely repetitious, and I would be interested in your thoughts on "coincidences." (And by that I mean whether there are such things, and how they play into this.) Thank you.
 
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daq

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I'm new to this thread, and I didn't know your views on gematria, but I am interested in what you said.

Actually, numerically speaking, you do not appear to be new to this thread, though you may have forgotten that you posted herein when it was originally posted. There are two posts on the first page, from 6/6/2020, with your screen name attached, (replies numbered 2 and 3). Not that I make anything out of the date, (6/6/2020, lol), but just for the record.


Clearly, according to the author of the Apocalypse, (Rev 13:18), there is some use of gematria in the scripture. However that does not necessarily mean that there is a perfect background numerical code for anything and everything written in the scripture: that's taking it way too far, at least in imo. I believe that is rather an idea some like to use as a reason for reinterpreting the plain text of the scripture, and therefore, something to be extremely cautious about. The moment you admit the premise, the hunt is on for the perfect code, and eventually the surface text almost inevitably takes a back seat. You cannot have a perfect background gematria code running through the entire LETTER of the text if some of the letters have been omitted or emended: and they certainly have been, both in the Hebrew, and in the Apostolic Greek texts.

For example the original Ashuri, (Assyrian or Babylonian), block Hebrew script from the time of Ezra was not separated, (I understand that this is arguable, and there are no doubt others of a different opinion, but this is what I have found in my own studies). The original Ashuri text was rather written in a form of scriptio continua similar to the oldest Greek Uncial texts of the Apostolic writings. The waw/vav in the original Ashuri script doubled as a word separator, and was sometimes to be read as the particle of continuance, ("and", etc.), and sometimes not to be read at all because it served merely as a word separator. This was in addition to the fact that the waw is a letter used in the formation of words, and moreover there were probably no sofits either, the five final-form letters, (some of which, like the mem, we see beginning to be introduced in the DSS). The sofits were introduced in order to separate the text because without them certain words can be confused with words that follow, (joining two words and making one word out of the two). Thus, without the waw as a word separator, the sofits became a necessary tool in the separation of the text.

What therefore happened when the text was finally completely separated as we find it today? An untold number of the letter waw/vav dropped out of the text: and in some places one may even find a waw that should not have been read, and rather more likely should have dropped out of the text, but was left in place because of interpretation, whether for the good or for the bad. In gematria this means an untold number of 6's have been removed from the original Ahsuri text from the time of Ezra, and yet, the Ashuri text is not earlier than about that time, and we see the older Paleo script also at Qumran, which we know to be more ancient than the Ashuri script changeover period about the time of the Babylonian captivity.

I am not saying that the scripture isn't "inspired", but it is the logos-reasoning and teaching that is inspired, not the letter, and yet gematria relies on the letter: add or remove one letter and the gematria has been changed.
 
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MGBurke

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Thank you. I had forgotten. and I'm glad there were only two 6's (as in the 66 books of the N.T.) in that date. And I think you're right that once you accept the premise that there is that there is a perfect background numerical code for anything and everything written in the scripture the hunt is on, and the surface text tends to take a back seat. I can testify to that. But what's wrong with that premise (aside from any changes in the text made by Ezra, who I think most of us would believe was inspired)? What about those who say there are no coincidences? I would assume we all agree that G-d is omnipotent and omniscient, so aren't they right? And if they're not, how do those of us who believe in G-d's omniscience and omnipotence define "coincedence"?
 
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daq

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Yeah, I don't go for the "coincidence" model either, but that's about as far as I wish to take it because, well, too much speculation in such a field as this. Even if there are truly no coincidences regarding what people like to think of as gematria that does not mean anyone can definitively comprehend, understand, and explain it all. There is just way too much speculation in the whole field. It's become much like skip letter sequence codes or whatever they call that now days, (they used to call it Torah Codes), where people find all sorts of astonishing things through skip letter sequences in the text. Some even say that the scribes would use such tools as a proof to check their texts, which sounds great, but I am not so sure that is provable, (though it sounds likely).

Here's the point for bringing up the Torah codes: let's say that ancient scribes did indeed count skip letter sequences to check their texts, and let's say that they had certain phrases and maybe even sentences that they knew were in the text at certain skip intervals running through the text: does that mean Elohim put those things there for them to be able to check the text? Or what would you say of someone who find's a prophecy about Benjamin Netanyahu, possibly being in a plane crash, and warns him not to fly around that time when the prophecy is supposed to be fulfilled according to the skip sequence prophecy he found in the text? (this actually happened if I remember correctly). Is that what the scribes of thousands of years ago were thinking or finding in the text? Or did Elohim put it there just for Benjamin Netanyahu 3500+ years ago? Unfortunately gematria has come to be in just about the same category as it stands today. While I am not willing to call anything about the scripture coincidence, I am also not too keen about drinking the modern prophet koolaid.
 
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MGBurke

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Thank you. Maybe you and I wouldn't have such a negative reaction to the word "coincidence" if we could define what we (believers) might mean by such a word (or a better word, if you could suggest one) in the context of gematria and Torah codes. And maybe other things, like a speaker's involuntary sneezing, or his biting his tongue. If those things aren't "coincidrnces," did G-d intend the sneeze to tell us the speaker is telling the truth? Or his biting his tongue to tell us he's lying? Must everything that could mean something be intended by G-d to mean something? And if there are some things that might seem to, AND DON'T (like equidistant bible codes, and gematriot) can we call them coincidences? And if we do, how do we (believers) define that word (in this context)? Or is there a better word?

I'd be very interested in any thoughts you (or anyone else) has here.
 
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Laureate

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The word Algebra is phonetically אל דיברה (the) Word of Al(ohym), the ‘G’ in Geometry and Algebra are both enunciated as a ‘J’ which is epenthetically a ‘D’ slurred with a ‘Y’ [i.e., say ‘Did You’ fast three times, and listen for the Didjew].

The J is phonetically a hard [vocallized] צ/ץ [as opposed to the Asperated Ts/Tch (Ch) sound more commonly associated with צ
 
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Laureate

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You can tell by the enunciation of ציון as Zion , was an interpretive attempt to guess an appropriate enunciation of a written צ, and not an attempt to immatate what was heard by ear, because Ch or J, is nowhere close to the Z sound.
 
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Laureate

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On second thought, the IPA has the Ch sound represented as tʃ (t’sh), with the ʃ representing Sh, the vocalization of these aspirates is ʒ (Dz), which is represented in the Greek Alphabet.

The same Greek letter is used to enunciate Dzeus, which every one now enunciates as Zeus, so the Z in Zion is not sooo different from a Dz enunciation, or a elongated J (Dzh), it’s the dropping off of the D (or T aspirate) that gives us Sion or Zion, which is somewhat misleading seeing how both the S and Z exist in the Hebrew Aleph U Tau (Aleph Bet).

the Ts sound is a diphthong, and is thus unlikely an original enunciation of צ/ץ because none of the other Hebrew characters are diphthongs [an enunciation of two distinct sounds], in fact no symbol of any alphabet is a diphthong.

The Ch sound in English is represented by two symbols just like the Sh sound, however neither one of these sounds are diphthongs [represent two distinct sounds].
 
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Laureate

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The using of the word Coincidence to convey, ‘Oh that’s just a happenstance, these Coinciding Events are not indicative to one another’, is 100% oximoronic, for Coinciding Events is precisely how Science Triangulates facts, and such a triangulation is inherent in our establishing every matter by the פן Mouth/Angulation of two or three witnesses/testimonies/(pieces of sound) Evidence.


As for יהוה [That which is], יהוה [That which was] and יהוה [That which is to come] there is no such thing as an Accident, (so called) Coincident or a Mistake, for in every sense of the word יהוה ‘He Is’ יהוה ‘(what) Falls Out’, thus if we do not understand the correlation of such Coinciding Events then we do good to acknowledge our ignorance in the matter, rather than (conveniently) excusing it away as unimportant or non applicable just because it makes one’s (worldly) ego feel a little more comfortable.

Or who can understand Geometry or Algebra without first undertaking a study in such fields?

And though many believe that they do not need Geometry or Algebra to live the life which they desire to live, the laws of Geometry and Algebra have jurisdiction in nearly every aspect of our lives, and knowledge in these fields lends a degree of accurate forecasting, which helps many to prepare for a particular venture and prosperous undertaking.

The ELS (Equidistant Letter Skipping) of Bible Code searching is also classified as Gemara, along with Atbash and many other diverse codes.

Though Bible Code searching has been going on for millennia it appears to be locked in an infantile stage, probably due to an isolation of various codes, for instance a skip sequence will render many variables of which only a few appear to be comprehensible, whereas the average code searcher will take what little they have and say, See…., as if they were presenting something substantial or significant enough to ascertain something other than an aloof connection, instead taking their little tid bit as an invitation to incorporate other methods of ciphering.

Notwithstanding I found my date and place of birth in Zechariah 1:8, (location day, hour, month and year) according to both the Gregorian and Hebrew calendars, in a single strand of variables (not just a little here and there scattered about reading like a cross word puzzle), this fairly rules out the so called Coincidence, to further corroborate the encoded content is the accepted reading of Zechariah 1:8 which speaks of a Cavalryman (in charge of a Reconnaissance) עמד Rising/Appearing between a pair of Myrtles, which both of my parents happen to be (name wise);

And when Heaven first commissioned me I was just beginning the clearing process from active duty in the Army as a 19D(elta) Reconnaissance Specialist, aka Cavalry Scout, and the Voice which spoke to me said, ‘ What you did for them, you will now do for me’, at the time (Oct 1986) I was the #1 Cavalry Scout in my Division (at ft. Ord California), in charge of a Squad of seven men, and I was also the Company Standard Bearer.
 
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Laureate

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I believe the word for lie (deceive, or fail) is כָּזַב, and it's numerical value is 26, and I don't understand why this word would have the same numerical value as the Tetragrammaton (G-d's most Holy Name.) Can anyone help me?

Let’s see if I can help you with that, my understanding comes from a reconciliation of various passages.

When Yeshua instructed us on how to pray, the prayer included, ….lead us not into temptation…., hereby indicating who it is that hands us over to a delusion and convinces us to Believe a Lie.

No one but our Heavenly Father can do this, and one of the primary catalyst prompting a Lie comes from us not receiving and believing a testimony from on high, for those who believe not Alohym make him (not someone else) out to be a Liar, and the Father of it ]i.e., Satan], subsequently to not believe Alohym is to be as those who referred to Rûakh H’Kodesh as Beelzbub.

Alohym not only establishes our footsteps, and the work of our hands, he also establishes our Speech, for I, says he, create the fruit of the lips, however the unfaithful believe their lips are their own, and yet we know that He cannot tell a Lie, wherefore a Lie is not something that is Spoken outwardly but rather believed inwardly in the heart of one who attempts to bear false witness, or is mislead by a convolution of truth which they are inclined to believe.

One will say, Laureate, that is not true, for many bear false witness with their lips, and to this I reply, any attempt of Alohym to tell a Lie Will only manifest a truth or reality, otherwise I have personally discovered that a formula of words presented in a given context where it proves to be false, we can find another context where the same formula of words will prove to be true, this is where misleading comes into play, and unless one is aware of such contexts, they would not be the wiser, or how can Alohym convince someone to believe a lie if he has not the ability to do so?

Just because one cannot perceive the truth that is veiled by a misleading does not mean that there is no truth being veiled.

For if all the things which Alohym cannot do, he is nevertheless able to achieve the equivalent thereof.

Now consider the account of David numbering Ishrael, which is recorded in two books, the one begins the account by saying, And the Anger of Yahuah was kindled and moved David to number Ishrael…., where in the other account it says, And Satan provoked David to number Ishrael…., the only way to reconcile these two accounts is to conclude that Satan is the Anger of Yah, who also presides over the children of Pride.
 
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MGBurke

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Correct me of I'm wrong, but I believe גמטריא is the Hebrew word for gematria, I believe it has a numerical value of 263, and I believe the phrase טעות גדולה also has a numerical value of 263. Am I right? And would an English translation of that prase be "a big mistake"? As in gemtria is "a big mistake"?
 
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MGBurke

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I apologize for the typo.
That should read:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe גמטריא is the Hebrew word for gematria, I believe it has a numerical value of 263, and I believe the phrase טעות גדולה also has a in value of 263. Am I right? And would an English translation of that phrase be "a big mistake"? As in gematria (perhaps with one or two exceptions) is "a big mistake"?
 
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