Garden of Eden, tree of knowledge

razeontherock · Apr 14, 2011

oi_antz said:
So we can only speculate, and we can choose which, if any, comments we might believe from each other.

Here's how that should work:

"let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Rom 3:4)

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Since none of us are St Paul, it's enough to keep an eye out for what we've encountered as we read normally. G-d will bring to our remembrance what we need as He sees fit if we're listening, and quicken it to us. The Word of the Lord is sure, and lasts forever! Once exposed to His ideas, there's no soap that will scrub them off ...

elman · Apr 19, 2011

oi_antz said:
I think what you are describing is milk and meat. I'm still quite a baby so I can't see all the symbolism you can see. I know in Revelation 2:7 Jesus says "To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.", so I would not agree that Jesus is the tree of life without seeing some scriptural support. Do you have some scriptures that state Jesus as being the tree of life?

Also, I just want clarification from you because maybe I have misunderstood your faith, do you believe that Adam and Eve were physically in the garden of Eden and they ate fruit from a tree that gave them godly wisdom of good and evil, then were banished from the garden and cursed for their sin?

the tree of life
Was this tree in the garden of Eden? What separated man from the tree of life? Where is the tree of life? Is the tree of life, the bread of Heaven, and the water of life, the same thing? What are they?
This tree was in the garden of Eden. Man was separated from the tree of life by sin. The tree of life will appear later in Revelations. It is in the new Jerusalem, the new Heaven, the Kingdom of God, the Church. Jesus is our tree of life, our bread of life, our water of life. He is the only source of spiritual life. It is from and because of Him that we are healed and saved from spiritual death. It is God who gives life by his presence, symbolized by the tree of life.
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow outof the ground trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree ofthe knowledge of good and evil.Gen2:9
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, or she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed. Prov 3:13 18
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise. Prov 11:30
The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit. Prov 15:4
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Rev. 22:1 2
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

oi_antz · Apr 20, 2011

elman said:
the tree of life
Was this tree in the garden of Eden? What separated man from the tree of life? Where is the tree of life? Is the tree of life, the bread of Heaven, and the water of life, the same thing? What are they?
This tree was in the garden of Eden. Man was separated from the tree of life by sin. The tree of life will appear later in Revelations. It is in the new Jerusalem, the new Heaven, the Kingdom of God, the Church. Jesus is our tree of life, our bread of life, our water of life. He is the only source of spiritual life. It is from and because of Him that we are healed and saved from spiritual death. It is God who gives life by his presence, symbolized by the tree of life.
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow outof the ground trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree ofthe knowledge of good and evil.Gen2:9
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, or she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed. Prov 3:13 18
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise. Prov 11:30
The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit. Prov 15:4
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Rev. 22:1 2
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

Thanks, this paints a nice picture in my mind of what you believe, but I still see a literal story printed in very plain clear words that Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and prevented from eating from the tree of life, and only by Jesus may we eat that fruit. I also don't see any verses that state Jesus is the tree of life. Can you please make that verse bold so I can see it? Thanks

oi_antz · Apr 20, 2011

razeontherock said:
Here's how that should work:

"let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Rom 3:4)

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Since none of us are St Paul, it's enough to keep an eye out for what we've encountered as we read normally. G-d will bring to our remembrance what we need as He sees fit if we're listening, and quicken it to us. The Word of the Lord is sure, and lasts forever! Once exposed to His ideas, there's no soap that will scrub them off ...

Yes indeed, but we know too that some people use God's word in a context that it isn't intended to be used.

elman · Apr 20, 2011

oi_antz said:
Thanks, this paints a nice picture in my mind of what you believe, but I still see a literal story printed in very plain clear words that Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and prevented from eating from the tree of life, and only by Jesus may we eat that fruit. I also don't see any verses that state Jesus is the tree of life. Can you please make that verse bold so I can see it? Thanks

When the Bible says Jesus will conquer with the sword coming from His mouth--do you see any verses saying that is not a literal sword? The words are very plain and clear that it is a sword. But the meaning is very plain and clear that the Bible is not refering to a literal sword but to the word of God--the teachings of Jesus. But there is no verse that says exactly that.

nhisname · Apr 20, 2011

RuthJoseph said:
In the beginning, god gifted us with the Garden of Eden. He showed it to Adam and Eve and said they could take and eat anything they desired.

Then, he took it upon himself to place a large, pretty tree in the middle of it - the tree of knowledge - and said we were never allowed to consume its fruit.

Why would he do that? To me it sounds like a parent telling their children that they can have all of these bowls of fruits and vegetables, but can't ever touch this bowl of delicious sweets that's right in front of them - and expecting their children will follow that command? I've had a lot of trouble reconciling this with the god I've come to know and love. Can anyone help me to understand please?

Eve never even thought about eating from the tree until she was enticed and tempted by Satan. It's all about making the right choices and free will. Do we listen to what God tells us or the world. Good versus bad. As far as putting sweets in front of children we need to teach our children from early on that the world is full of temptations and making the wrong choices will lead us into destruction. God could have just made us robots with no free will of our own but he wants us to make our own choice to love him.

nhisname · Apr 20, 2011

chris4243 said:
What always bugs me about that story is that it makes Satan seem like he's more honest and possibly nicer than God.

More honest? How so?

nhisname · Apr 20, 2011

chris4243 said:
Check out what God says in Genesis 3:22. He confirms that Adam could still eat from the tree of life and live forever. The cause of Adam's death cannot be the eating of the fruit; it is God's action. But God did not say "if you eat of the fruit I will kill you myself", He said they would die and they didn't (depending on the translation, a time period is involved). Meanwhile, the serpent said they wouldn't die and they didn't. Doesn't that seem more honest?

As for the death being metaphorical, what kind of sick twisted bastard makes metaphors about death without indicating that they are metaphors? eg "A tsunami is coming, flee for your life!!! Oh, I just meant a tsunami of obesity, what do you mean I'm a liar."

Adam and Eve were meant to live forever when God made them but that changed the second Eve ate of the fruit. It also killed the spirtual relationship between them. And God warned them before they did this. How was God not being honest?

chris4243 · Apr 20, 2011

nhisname said:
More honest? How so?

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3: 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Now it seems to me that things happened exactly as the serpent said, and also the serpent told them more than God did concerning the tree. Both God and the serpent didn't tell the whole truth though. As for metaphorical death, I don't think there was any indication when God gave the command that the death would be metaphorical.

Also consider these:
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Here, already God goes back on His word (if you interpret Genesis literally). Furthermore, Eve either didn't know God's command, or God changed His command, and now Eve also think God commanded her not to eat from the tree of life?

nhisname · Apr 20, 2011

chris4243 said:
It is only God who told a half-truth, and not the serpent, in that story. God said that when they eat of the tree they will die; and they did not. Furthermore, they were still able to live forever until God acted to prevent that (Genesis 3:22). The half-truth here is saying "you will die" vs "I will kill you". The serpent said they would not die from eating the fruit (see context of the conversation), and they didn't. It was not the fruit, but God's reaction, that resulted in their death.

Incidentally, there is no indication whatsoever that Adam and Eve would have lived forever, other then that they could have by eating from the tree of life. Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not change this.

Okay you've got "I will die vs I will kill you. God gave Adam and Eve the choice. They are the ones who listened to a lie and killed themselves. God gave them the choice and they blew it...simple. Their actions, their choices ...simple... That my friend is the truth. Like it or not....

Gen. 3:19 Part of the punishments for disobedience.
Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; for you are dust, And to dust you shall return. This was included with punishments.

nhisname · Apr 20, 2011

bling said:
Answer this: would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey or would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on Gods Love found in His forgiveness (outside the Garden after sinning)?
I do not believe Adam and Eve were made with instinctive Godly type Love for that is not possible since Godly type Love is not a robotic type of love.

I believe the whole reason for making Adam and Eve was for them to have away to obtain Godly type Love for Gods Love would have compelled Him to make beings that could Love like He Loves.
I had never thought of this before but it makes such perfect sense . If Adam and Eve hadn't disobeyed we as humans would never have learned how to Love God the way we should. Only through need, dependency and sacrifice can we experince this hunger for God's love. God sacrificed his son out of a deep love for us and we should do the same for him by giving our lives to him.

In the Garden prior to sin, God is Loving Adam and Eve with Godly Love (unconditional, undeserving, selfless, sacrificial, a free gift), but in order for Adam and Eve to accept that Love as it was given they would have to realize they were accepting Charity and no human likes to accept charity and be humble. Humans are made with good instinctive self preservation, which generates self awareness, egos and some selfishness. Adam and Eve as excellent children would accept Gods love as parental love from an excellent parent. There is no need for Adam and Eve to be humble since they had done nothing wrong and what God was doing for them is to be expected of any good parent toward their good children.

After Adam and Eve sin (sin has purpose) they must trust Gods Love (faith) to forgive them which they now feel the need and Hope for a better relationship (heaven) and can humble themselves before God to accept charity (in the form of forgiveness) and thus Love much (he that is forgiven much will Love much).

The Garden is a lousy place for man to fulfill his objective which was made known to Adam and eve and all of us.

God is great!

nhisname · Apr 21, 2011

chris4243 said:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die. Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat of the fruit and God told them why...that's pretty cut and dried.

Genesis 3: 4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
Satan took what God had said and twisted it around to decieve Eve. This is your version of honesty?
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Satan attacked and manipulated Eve's senses. Taste, touch, sight and most of all her ego (she would be like God)
This is honesty?
22 And the LORD God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

Now it seems to me that things happened exactly as the serpent said, and also the serpent told them more than God did concerning the tree. Both God and the serpent didn't tell the whole truth though. As for metaphorical death, I don't think there was any indication when God gave the command that the death would be metaphorical.What you think is honesty was pure evil intent on destroying mankind. Like I said before Eve was manipulated by Satan. Satan is very good at what he does best, which is lie. Adam and Eve had a one on one relationship, friendship with God. He was their creator and he loved them. Man is weak and in order for us to learn to love and obey God the way we should is through trial and sacrifice.

Also consider these:
29 Then God said, I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. Seed bearing fruit. The trees in the middle were one of a kind trees. They were not going to reproduce. No seeds in them.

In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

2 The woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.

Here, already God goes back on His word (if you interpret Genesis literally). Furthermore, Eve either didn't know God's command, or God changed His command, and now Eve also think God commanded her not to eat from the tree of life?

Eve knew his command, she told the serpent what God had said about the fruit.

chris4243 · Apr 21, 2011

nhisname said:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat of the fruit and God told them why...that's pretty cut and dried.

I'm pretty sure it is Satan who told them the "why" of God's command... Because God does not want you to be like Him, knowing good and evil. The Bible says the fruit itself did not kill them.

Genesis 3: 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Satan took what God had said and twisted it around to decieve Eve. This is your version of honesty?

Satan said what God later confirmed after the fact. That is, in fact, honesty. Each of the things Satan said is confirmed in the Bible. The one thing God said, was shown to be false in the Bible. Which is honest, the one that speaks the truth or the one that speaks something that can only be said to be true metaphorically?

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Satan attacked and manipulated Eve's senses. Taste, touch, sight and most of all her ego (she would be like God)
This is honesty?

Now you're the one who's lying. Satan had nothing to do with Eve's senses, much less "attack and manipulate" them, whatever that means. It is God who made her senses, and it is God who made the tree of knowledge of good and evil pleasant to her senses (read the Bible!!!). Satan didn't so much as point out that the trees were pleasant, Eve noticed that for herself. All Satan did was tell Eve things that God would later confirm to be true; the only thing he left out was how God demands the death of sinners.

22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Now it seems to me that things happened exactly as the serpent said, and also the serpent told them more than God did concerning the tree. Both God and the serpent didn't tell the whole truth though. As for metaphorical death, I don't think there was any indication when God gave the command that the death would be metaphorical.What you think is honesty was pure evil intent on destroying mankind. Like I said before Eve was manipulated by Satan. Satan is very good at what he does best, which is lie. Adam and Eve had a one on one relationship, friendship with God. He was their creator and he loved them. Man is weak and in order for us to learn to love and obey God the way we should is through trial and sacrifice.

I never said Satan had good intentions. I don't know what Satan's intentions are, but I don't think they're in conflict with God's intentions. God uses Satan to tempt us (see Job, Jesus being led by the spirit to be tempted); whether that's his job or whether they had a disagreement is not clear. Maybe Satan just rebelled against an omniscient and omnipotent being for fun. Or maybe it's like you said, that we need trials and sacrifice and Satan can make them seem worse than they really are, so that we don't need such harsh trials or sacrifices.

Also consider these:
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. Seed bearing fruit. The trees in the middle were one of a kind trees. They were not going to reproduce. No seeds in them.

In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Here, already God goes back on His word (if you interpret Genesis literally). Furthermore, Eve either didn't know God's command, or God changed His command, and now Eve also think God commanded her not to eat from the tree of life?
Eve knew his command, she told the serpent what God had said about the fruit.

If Eve knew God's command, then why did she answer with a different command? Also, only angiosperms (seed bearing trees) have fruit.

oi_antz · Apr 25, 2011

elman said:
When the Bible says Jesus will conquer with the sword coming from His mouth--do you see any verses saying that is not a literal sword? The words are very plain and clear that it is a sword. But the meaning is very plain and clear that the Bible is not refering to a literal sword but to the word of God--the teachings of Jesus. But there is no verse that says exactly that.

Then what gives you the idea that Jesus is the tree of life when the Bible clearly states that the tree of life is in the paradise of God and that Jesus will give us the right to eat of the tree of life if we are victorious? Is it actually Biblical or did you make it up?

oi_antz · Apr 25, 2011

Hey Chris, doesn't it seem strange to you that we can't find the garden of Eden on earth? Possibly do you think that the garden of Eden is in the realm of eternity where heaven and hell are also? Do you think this maybe explains the how when Adam and Eve were banished from Eden and found themselves on earth where they would surely die? Do you not accept that we are spiritually dead before we are "born again"? (If you have not been born again I would not expect you to know how to even say yes). So, I think that by all accounts and purposes, God was correct that yes, Adam and Eve certainly died and yes, there is no way besides Jesus' promise that we can ever eat of the tree of life because it is in the garden of Eden which is protected. Furthermore, the only way we can have immortal life now that all this has happened is to be born again and to do the will of Jesus' Father in heaven, then we will be part of the final resurrection into the new earth and as slaves (whom Jesus calls "friends"), we will serve Him with most reverence knowing full well what death means and that when God says we will "surely die" for disobeying Him, He does in fact mean we will "surely die".

Can you answer a question for me: since it is true that we do in fact "surely die", why are you arguing here, do you think it can be productive somehow?

elman · Apr 25, 2011

oi_antz said:
Then what gives you the idea that Jesus is the tree of life when the Bible clearly states that the tree of life is in the paradise of God and that Jesus will give us the right to eat of the tree of life if we are victorious? Is it actually Biblical or did you make it up?

So is Jesus literally a sword because Jesus is the word of God according John the first chapter?

oi_antz · Apr 25, 2011

elman said:
So is Jesus literally a sword because Jesus is the word of God according John the first chapter?

Hi Elman, I don't know what you mean, can you please quote the scripture. I can quote the scripture that I think is relevant:

John 1:1
1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
[...]
14 So the Word became human[d] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.[e] And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Fathers one and only Son.

This clearly shows that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, but I don't know why you think Jesus is a sword. Can you please quote the scripture that gave you that idea.

elman · Apr 26, 2011

oi_antz said:
Hi Elman, I don't know what you mean, can you please quote the scripture. I can quote the scripture that I think is relevant:

This clearly shows that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, but I don't know why you think Jesus is a sword. Can you please quote the scripture that gave you that idea.

In Revelation Jesus is pictured fighting with a sword coming from His mouth. Why would it be coming from His mouth if it is not the word of God that is the weapon being discussed? I think you are trying to take things too literally and that causes one to not get the meaning intended.

oi_antz · Apr 26, 2011

elman said:
In Revelation Jesus is pictured fighting with a sword coming from His mouth. Why would it be coming from His mouth if it is not the word of God that is the weapon being discussed? I think you are trying to take things too literally and that causes one to not get the meaning intended.

That's a pretty heavy judgment to make, do you not also think that you could be reading meanings from the text that aren't intended? I am only interested in seeing it for what it is. You said Jesus is the tree of life, I have asked you for scripture to prove it and you have not provided any scripture that says Jesus is the tree of life. Can you please tell me if this is a Biblical understanding or not?

razeontherock · Apr 26, 2011

I think it's very fitting to discuss the symbolism of the story. There's a lot of power there! While I've personally never looked at Jesus being the tree and it strikes me as odd, He did say He is the vine ...

Garden of Eden, tree of knowledge

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