GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

Jazer · Aug 7, 2011

gradyll said:
your right creationists (YEC) need to update their material. But they are working on limited budgets thats all. (not federally funded)

The University of Jerusalam is doing a pretty good job of updating the material and providing Science to verify what we read in our Bible. At least when it comes to Genetics, Geneologys and DNA. Archeology has always done a good job also. Then there are chance events like when the little shephard boy found a fragment of an ancient document that they sold at the local market. Eventually when they found their way into the Scientific community the dead sea scrolls created quite a bit of excitment.

createdtoworship · Aug 7, 2011

Jazer said:
The University of Jerusalam is doing a pretty good job of updating the material and providing Science to verify what we read in our Bible. At least when it comes to Genetics, Geneologys and DNA. Archeology has always done a good job also. Then there are chance events like when the little shephard boy found a fragment of an ancient document that they sold at the local market. Eventually when they found their way into the Scientific community the dead sea scrolls created quite a bit of excitment.

what about the shroud of turin, a quick internet search does some interesting observations about that piece. I am not sure I believe in it but it's interesting about the radiation involved in the images.

Jazer · Aug 7, 2011

gradyll said:
what about the shroud of turin, a quick internet search does some interesting observations about that piece.

Yes, I researched everything there was to research on that at one time. Nothing new has come along though. The Catholic Church started to worry about someone getting the DNA and trying to clone Jesus, so right now they are not letting anyone near the Shroud. Maybe someday they will allow someone to run a test on the DNA of the Blood on the Shroud.

createdtoworship · Aug 7, 2011

Jazer said:
Yes, I researched everything there was to research on that at one time. Nothing new has come along though. The Catholic Church started to worry about someone getting the DNA and trying to clone Jesus, so right now they are not letting anyone near the Shroud. Maybe someday they will allow someone to run a test on the DNA of the Blood on the Shroud.

clone Jesus? Well He wouldn't be the God part only the human part. So I am unsure why they are so worried. Could become the anti christ though. That wouldn't be good.

I found a pretty lengthy documentary on it....

Watch Videos Online | Jesus and the Shroud of Turin | Veoh.com

Wiccan_Child · Aug 8, 2011

Jazer said:
We still accept YEC and OEC as true on their own level they explain what they explain. I think OEC is the day age theory. The fruit-bearing plants were not here when the earth was covered with ice.

For the GAP Gen 1:2 begins 12,982 years ago at the end of the ice age when the earth was in a state of ruin. Everything needed restored. God is in the restoration business and He rebuilds with a remnant from the past age. We will see this again soon in your life time. The earth will be destroyed with fire. Yet a remnant will remain to rebuild the earth and to go on for another 1000 years.

The GAP takes place between Gen 1:1 & Gen 1:2. Starting in Vs 2 we see that the earth is in a state of ruin: "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Now for a explaination of "without form and void" lets look at Jeremiah 4, where we see that the earth is "formless and empty". In the Hebrew the words are the same: tohuw & bohuw.

23I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.
27This is what the Lord says:
The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.

Woops, only just saw this

So, you believe both YEC (life and the Earth were created in six consequtive 24-hour periods) and OEC (life and the Earth formed over billions of years; each 'day' is a long swathe of geological time) aren't contradictory? How do you reconcile the apparent paradox, in that YEC and OEC define the length of Genesis' days differently?

What is the internal chronolgy of GAP? If Genesis 1:2 began 12,982 years ago (is this date accurate for 2011CE?), when did the Second Day begin?

Jazer · Aug 8, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
Woops, only just saw this

So, you believe both YEC (life and the Earth were created in six consequtive 24-hour periods) and OEC (life and the Earth formed over billions of years; each 'day' is a long swathe of geological time) aren't contradictory? How do you reconcile the apparent paradox, in that YEC and OEC define the length of Genesis' days differently?

YEC deal with the last 6000 years. That Begins with Gen Ch 2. OEC only deals with Gen Ch 1. There is no conflict because one deals with Ch 2 and the other deals with Ch1. They are talking about two different things.

I am GAP (restorationist) when it comes to Gen Ch1. A day is 1000 years. We have a situation where the earth is in a state of ruin. The ice is melting there is global flooding. The ocean level goes up 300 feet which is substantial. There is mass extinction. One Age Clearly ends (Pleistocene epoch) and a new age begins. The Neolithic Age, Era, or Period. Science says this Era began in 9500 BC (11500 years ago) The Second Day. What does God do on the Second Day in Genesis: He divides the Waters.

Wiccan_Child said:
What is the internal chronolgy of GAP? If Genesis 1:2 began 12,982 years ago (is this date accurate for 2011CE?), when did the Second Day begin?

A day is 1000 years so the second day began 1000 years later.

We are talking about the Church Age. That began on Pentacost 33 years after Jesus was born. Jesus died on passover then 50 days laster 7 weeks of 7 plus a day: that was the beginning of the Christian Church. Also called the Age of Grace, the Time of the Gentiles, The Holy Spirit Dispensation and many more names.

It would take a whole book to explain all of this. Or even a whole library of books. I am just trying to show people that are interested where to look.

Split Rock · Aug 8, 2011

Jazer said:
Yep and they are all bogus because coat color has nothing to do with mutations. You have given me a fine example of the mis information you find in Evolutionary theory. What you want to do is a study on equine coat color genetics This will explain to you how it all works. You will see that it has nothing to do with mutations. All the syrian hamsters came from ONE common ancestor. There are lots of them but the reason the color was so limited was because of a bottleneck. So you may also want to do a study on population bottleneck (or genetic bottleneck).

If you want to call "equine coat color genetics" and "population bottleneck" "Evolution" then I can not stop you. At least you will be talking real Science and not some bogus mutations theory. Mutated Ninja Turtles maybe cute, but I am sorry to inform you that it is just a cartoon and they do not exist in the real world of real Science.

That's right... they were inbred lines, with no color variance. Please then explain to us 5th graders Where did the new color come from if not from a mutation??

Split Rock · Aug 8, 2011

gradyll said:
I agree with speciation to a point, I believe macro evolution to be at above the species level (at the genus level) however.

there are no credible sources that state dinosaurs have feathers. The two that do have feathers (Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx) have recently been named birds.

source...
A. Feduccia, T. Lingham-Soliar, and J.R. Hinchliffe, Do feathered dinosaurs exist? Testing the hypothesis on neontological and paleontological evidence, Journal of Morphology 266:125166, 2005.

Yes, I know that Feduccia is a hold out on the theropod ancestry of birds. He is one of the few left, however.

In any case, here is a list of non-avian and possibly non-avian dinosaurs that had feathers:

1.Archaeopteryx (1861; possibly avialan)[10][11]
2.Avimimus (inferred 1987: quill knobs)[12][13]
3.Wellnhoferia (1988; possibly avialan)[14][11]
4.Sinosauropteryx (1996)[15]
5.Protarchaeopteryx (1997)[16]
6.Caudipteryx (1998)[17]
7.Rahonavis (inferred 1998: quill knobs; possibly avialan[18])[19]
8.Shuvuuia (1999)[1]
9.Sinornithosaurus (1999)[20]
10.Beipiaosaurus (1999)[21]
11.Microraptor (2000)[22]
12.Nomingia (inferred 2000: pygostyle)[23]
13.NGMC 91 (2001)[24]
14.Cryptovolans (2002)[25]
15.Psittacosaurus? (2002)[26]
16.Yixianosaurus (2003)[27]
17.Dilong (2004)[28]
18.Pedopenna (2005; possibly avialan[29])[30]
19.Jinfengopteryx (2005)[31][32]
20.Juravenator (2006)[33][34]
21.Sinocalliopteryx (2007)[35]
22.Velociraptor (inferred 2007: quill knobs)[5]
23.Similicaudipteryx (inferred 2008: pygostyle; confirmed 2010)[36][37]
24.Anchiornis (2009)[38]
25.Tianyulong? (2009)[39]
26.Concavenator? (inferred 2010: quill knobs?)[40]
27.Xiaotingia (2011)[11]

Feathered dinosaur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AV1611VET · Aug 8, 2011

Split Rock said:
2.Avimimus

-- I beg your pardon?

Wiccan_Child · Aug 8, 2011

Jazer said:
YEC deal with the last 6000 years. That Begins with Gen Ch 2. OEC only deals with Gen Ch 1. There is no conflict because one deals with Ch 2 and the other deals with Ch1. They are talking about two different things.

I've never heard that form of YEC espoused by a self-professed YEC-ist. I've only ever heard YEC defined as a belief in the creation of the universe, the Earth, and life, in six consecutive 24-hour periods 6000-or-so years ago, often with explicit denial of any age or gap between the six days. This definition is supported by secular websites, like Wikipedia:

"Young Earth creationism (YEC) is a form of creationism that asserts the Heavens, Earth, and all life on Earth was created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago." - Wikipedia

And Creationist websites, like Answers In Genesis:

"The days in Genesis do not correspond to geologic ages, but are six [6] consecutive twenty-four [24] hour days of creation." AiG Statement of Faith

"God went out of his way to demonstrate to us that he meant for us to interpret the six "days" of creation as actual 24-hour days, with no gaps in between them" - creationists.org FAQ

"The young earth creation perspective is the result of a literal interpretation of the description of creation in Genesis 1. The Bible says that the world was created in 6 days with the many life forms required have a functional ecosystem. Subsequently a genealogy from Adam to Jesus can be used to easily calculate the age of the world. According to this Biblical chronology, the universe and the earth were created approximately 6000 years ago." - nwcreation.net

"Specifically, that the time from the beginning of the universe to the creation of humans was the six days recorded in Genesis 1, and that the time from the creation of man to the birth of Abraham was approximately 1950 years, as recorded in the Biblical genealogies. Given Biblical and other data for calculating a date for Abraham, we can calculate that the universe and the Earth were created approximately 6000 years ago" - creationwiki.org

I've yet to see any source or site of any disposition that attests that YEC is anything other than a belief in a 6000 year old Earth and creation of everything in six consecutive 24-hour periods. In other words, it's highly unusual that you define YEC to be, what, the subset of Creationism that only deals with the last 6000 years - what is your response to AiG, creationists.org, nwcreation.net, creationwiki.org, and practically every other evolutionist and creationist, Christian and atheist, who defines YEC differently?

Jazer said:
I am GAP (restorationist) when it comes to Gen Ch1. A day is 1000 years. We have a situation where the earth is in a state of ruin. The ice is melting there is global flooding. The ocean level goes up 300 feet which is substantial. There is mass extinction. One Age Clearly ends (Pleistocene epoch) and a new age begins. The Neolithic Age, Era, or Period. Science says this Era began in 9500 BC (11500 years ago) The Second Day. What does God do on the Second Day in Genesis: He divides the Waters.

A day is 1000 years so the second day began 1000 years later.

So would the following dates be accurate:
Day 2 began 11,982 years ago,
Day 3 began 10,982 years ago,
Day 4 began 9,982 years ago,
Day 5 began 8,982 years ago, and
Day 6 began 7,982 years ago.
Is this accurate?

Also, how literally do you take each creation event? When the Bible says that all winged fowls were created on the Day 5 (Gen. 1:21), do you believe that every species of bird that currently exists today was created? Did the creation of these species take place on the same day, or over the 1000 years till the next day?

Jazer said:
We are talking about the Church Age. That began on Pentacost 33 years after Jesus was born. Jesus died on passover then 50 days laster 7 weeks of 7 plus a day: that was the beginning of the Christian Church. Also called the Age of Grace, the Time of the Gentiles, The Holy Spirit Dispensation and many more names.

It would take a whole book to explain all of this. Or even a whole library of books. I am just trying to show people that are interested where to look.

Probably, but at the moment I'm most interested in what GAP says, rather than what support it has. Your definition of YEC, for instance, is very unusual.

Jazer · Aug 8, 2011

Wiccan_Child said:
I've never heard that form of YEC

I am going by Bishops Usslers book. I have a copy here. Also there is a copy somewhere on the Internet. First Published 1658. People say all sorts of crazy stuff, it is best to go back to the origional. I can not really answer for other YEC people right now at this moment.

I've yet to see any source or site of any disposition that attests that YEC is anything other than a belief in a 6000 year old Earth and creation of everything in six consecutive 24-hour periods.

YEC and GAP do seem to differ on their understanding of Gen Ch 1. I was mostly refering to their general agreement about Ch 2 in Gen. I guess I will have to try to make that more clear from now on. I thought I made it clear when I said we YEC and GAP differ in that GAP is a (replenish) restoration theory and we believe the days are 1000 years.

In other words, it's highly unusual that you define YEC to be, what, the subset of Creationism that only deals with the last 6000 years - what is your response to AiG, creationists.org, nwcreation.net, creationwiki.org, and practically every other evolutionist and creationist, Christian and atheist, who defines YEC differently?

Gen CH 1 takes place from God's Perspective. Einstein explained all of that: Time is Relative. A week for God could be billions of years for us. That would make YEC & OEC identical. Only you go by the watch that God is using.

So would the following dates be accurate:
Day 2 began 11,982 years ago,
Day 3 began 10,982 years ago,
Day 4 began 9,982 years ago,
Day 5 began 8,982 years ago, and
Day 6 began 7,982 years ago.
Is this accurate?

Yes, but Science uses the date 11,900, 10,900 and so on. Based on the Nano diamonds and the date they establish for that.

Also, how literally do you take each creation event? When the Bible says that all winged fowls were created on the Day 5 (Gen. 1:21), do you believe that every species of bird that currently exists today was created? Did the creation of these species take place on the same day, or over the 1000 years till the next day?

Recreation, restoration. I did restoration work all my life. God repopulated the earth with a remenant of what was here before. Soon this earth will be cleansed with fire and God will repopulate the earth again for 1000 years.

Probably, but at the moment I'm most interested in what GAP says, rather than what support it has. Your definition of YEC, for instance, is very unusual.

I just base what I believe on the work of Einstein and what he tells us about time and the work of Bishop Ussher. Clearly Einstein came after Bishop Ussher, so you can not expect him to know about Einsteins work. But today we know.

Jazer · Aug 8, 2011

Split Rock said:
Where did the new color come from if not from a mutation??

Genetics equine coat color genetics. If you want to learn some real science then study up on it. Even Jacob in the Bible understood how to work the genetics to get the color you want. Also you can read up on Gregor Mendel the "Father of Genetics".

The mutation theory has nothing to do with Darwin. He never bothered to look at Mendel's work. So he did not know or understand genetics. Anyways, whats the big deal? You are free to believe in mutations if you want. No one is forcing you to accept the truth.

Wiccan_Child · Aug 8, 2011

Jazer said:
I am going by Bishops Usslers book. I have a copy here. Also there is a copy somewhere on the Internet. First Published 1658. People say all sorts of crazy stuff, it is best to go back to the origional. I can not really answer for other YEC people right now at this moment.

If you're going by a nearly-400-year-old book, then you're going to run into problems. If you don't use modern terms for these concepts, then people are going to misunderstand you. You may very well say you're a Young Earth Creationist, but people will take that as a belief in a 6000-year-old Earth.

Besides, didn't Ussher* believe in a 6000 year old Earth? This excerpt seems to indicate that he did: "In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth, Gen. 1, v. 1. Which beginning of time, according to our Chronologie, fell upon the entrance of the night preceding the twenty third day of Octob[er] in the year of the Julian [Period] 710. The year before Christ 4004. The Julian Period 710.")

*Unless Bishop Ussler was a real person

Jazer said:
YEC and GAP do seem to differ on their understanding of Gen Ch 1. I was mostly refering to their general agreement about Ch 2 in Gen. I guess I will have to try to make that more clear from now on. I thought I made it clear when I said we YEC and GAP differ in that GAP is a (replenish) restoration theory and we believe the days are 1000 years.

Wait, do you believe the 'days' are periods of 1000 years, or are actual 24-hour periods that are 1000 years apart?

Jazer said:
Gen CH 1 takes place from God's Perspective. Einstein explained all of that: Time is Relative. A week for God could be billions of years for us. That would make YEC & OEC identical. Only you go by the watch that God is using.

Relativity says time is relative - to moving observers. For God to see 13.5 billion years of cosmological history whizz by in a week, the universe would have to be moving past him at close to the speed of light - which implies that God and the universe are two mundane objects in an even larger expanse of spacetime. Surely God isn't so confined?

Jazer said:
Yes, but Science uses the date 11,900, 10,900 and so on. Based on the Nano diamonds and the date they establish for that.

Recreation, restoration. I did restoration work all my life. God repopulated the earth with a remenant of what was here before. Soon this earth will be cleansed with fire and God will repopulate the earth again for 1000 years.

So when Genesis 1:21 says: "So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good" - what actually happened? Presumably this happened 8982 years ago - was that moment the first time birds came into existence? Is it the Hebrew's way of describing the evolution of birds across geological time?

Jazer said:
I just base what I believe on the work of Einstein and what he tells us about time and the work of Bishop Ussher. Clearly Einstein came after Bishop Ussher, so you can not expect him to know about Einsteins work. But today we know.

True, but I don't think Einstein's work implies what you think it implies. God, presumably, isn't in a spaceship moving inside the universe.

Split Rock · Aug 8, 2011

Jazer said:
Genetics equine coat color genetics. If you want to learn some real science then study up on it. Even Jacob in the Bible understood how to work the genetics to get the color you want. Also you can read up on Gregor Mendel the "Father of Genetics".

What does equine coat color genetics. have to do with Hamsters??? We are talking about Hamsters not Horses. The articles I showed you have nothing to do we standard genetic recombination used in breeding, they have to do with Mutations. I asked you where the new color came from and you have not answered me. One more time: Where did the **new** color come from in an inbred line with no color variation??

Jazer said:
The mutation theory has nothing to do with Darwin. He never bothered to look at Mendel's work. So he did not know or understand genetics. Anyways, whats the big deal? You are free to believe in mutations if you want. No one is forcing you to accept the truth.

When did I claim Darwin new anything about mutations or genetics? Guess what? Mendel knew nothing about mutations either!

Here is another paper, this one more complete: Genetics of Sex-linked yellow in the Syrian Hamster

Note this paragraph from the paper linked:

To investigate the underlying molecular basis for black coat color (and, indirectly, the epistasis relationship between black coat color and Sly), we used a PCR-based strategy to determine the coding sequence for the hamster Agouti gene. Within exon 4, which encodes the majority of the Agouti protein-coding region, we detected a G to A mutation that predicts a Cys115Tyr substitution (Figure 4A) found in both black hamsters and yellow hamsters in our colony, but not in golden hamsters. This residue is conserved among all known Agouti homologs and helps stabilize the key active loop responsible for melanocortin receptor antagonism (McNulty et al. 2005). Furthermore, a Cys115Ser mutation in a mouse Agouti transgene has the same effect as a null allele (Perry et al. 1996). Taken together, these results indicate that loss-of-function in Agouti is responsible for the black coat color in our colony.

**This shows the specific mutation (guanidine to adenine) responsible for the black color coat descibed. **

I am not the one balking at accepting "the truth." You are.

Jazer · Aug 8, 2011

Split Rock said:
What does equine coat color genetics. have to do with Hamsters??? We are talking about Hamsters not Horses.

Then run a search on Hamster coat color genetics.
http://home.comcast.net/~cricetus/genotyping.htm

Split Rock · Aug 9, 2011

Jazer said:
Then run a search on Hamster coat color genetics.
Syrian Hamster Genetics

One More Time. Where did the **new** color come from in an inbred line with no color variation??

Don't give me any more links. Just answer my question. You are the expert geneticist, who makes the PhD's look like 5th graders, right? So answer it, or admit that you do not know what the #$$%^@! you are posting about.

createdtoworship · Aug 9, 2011

Split Rock said:
Yes, I know that Feduccia is a hold out on the theropod ancestry of birds. He is one of the few left, however.

In any case, here is a list of non-avian and possibly non-avian dinosaurs that had feathers:

1.Archaeopteryx (1861; possibly avialan)[10][11]
2.Avimimus (inferred 1987: quill knobs)[12][13]
3.Wellnhoferia (1988; possibly avialan)[14][11]
4.Sinosauropteryx (1996)[15]
5.Protarchaeopteryx (1997)[16]
6.Caudipteryx (1998)[17]
7.Rahonavis (inferred 1998: quill knobs; possibly avialan[18])[19]
8.Shuvuuia (1999)[1]
9.Sinornithosaurus (1999)[20]
10.Beipiaosaurus (1999)[21]
11.Microraptor (2000)[22]
12.Nomingia (inferred 2000: pygostyle)[23]
13.NGMC 91 (2001)[24]
14.Cryptovolans (2002)[25]
15.Psittacosaurus? (2002)[26]
16.Yixianosaurus (2003)[27]
17.Dilong (2004)[28]
18.Pedopenna (2005; possibly avialan[29])[30]
19.Jinfengopteryx (2005)[31][32]
20.Juravenator (2006)[33][34]
21.Sinocalliopteryx (2007)[35]
22.Velociraptor (inferred 2007: quill knobs)[5]
23.Similicaudipteryx (inferred 2008: pygostyle; confirmed 2010)[36][37]
24.Anchiornis (2009)[38]
25.Tianyulong? (2009)[39]
26.Concavenator? (inferred 2010: quill knobs?)[40]
27.Xiaotingia (2011)[11]

Feathered dinosaur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think those are all feathers. secondly, some are not really feathers like the symmetrical ones that are not used for flying. So why would symmetrical feathers evolve? If they can't fly that would be the question for you.

Jazer · Aug 9, 2011

Split Rock said:
One More Time. Where did the **new** color come from in an inbred line with no color variation??

There is no "new" color. You have a recessive gene that was not being expressed because of bottleneck genetics. Most all species have 40 or more different colors. To say they each developed a mutation independant of each other is a contradiction to natural selection by common decent. You do not have common decent at all. The Syrian Hamsters all of a sudden develop the same colors that all the other hamsters already had? Two different hamsters WITHOUT common decent develops the same mutation?

You are the expert

I am no expert, I just know BS when I smell it and I do not buy it.
You can believe whatever you want to believe, just don't expect me to believe it.

Nostromo · Aug 9, 2011

gradyll said:
I don't think those are all feathers. secondly, some are not really feathers like the symmetrical ones that are not used for flying. So why would symmetrical feathers evolve? If they can't fly that would be the question for you.

If you think that's important perhaps you could consider why God created the ostrich with feathers.

Jazer · Aug 9, 2011

gradyll said:
So why would symmetrical feathers evolve? If they can't fly that would be the question for you.

If they did not have feathers they would have scales. For protection.

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