Future of non-denominational churches

nyj · Sep 19, 2003

beetlequeendiva said:
They are in Heaven but how can you possibly pray to someone in heaven...

God's in Heaven. Does that mean I can't pray to Him then?

By the way, what's this "cloud of witnesses" I see Paul refer to in Hebrews?

beetlequeendiva · Sep 19, 2003

You should have noticed that after I said that I said you pray to God, so obviously that means you do pray to God. Where in Hebrews? Also obviously there are people with God who witness what we say but that doesn't mean we are praying to them.

nyj · Sep 19, 2003

beetlequeendiva said:
Where in Hebrews?

You're not familiar with Hebrews? Read Chapter 12, verse 1.

beetlequeendiva said:
Also obviously there are people with God who witness what we say but that doesn't mean we are praying to them.

Well, if they witness what we say, then obviously people in Heaven, aside from God, know what is going on. Ergo, they can pray for us in Heaven.

beetlequeendiva · Sep 19, 2003

Okay cloud of witnesses means that they're are people in heaven, and they do know what is going on but how can they pray for us? how do you know they can? We pray to God not to anyone else.

nyj · Sep 19, 2003

beetlequeendiva said:
Okay cloud of witnesses means that they're are people in heaven, and they do know what is going on but how can they pray for us?

Revelations 5:8. 24 elders (Saints in Heaven) bring forth the prayers of the living to God. Matthew 18:10, the angels continually "report" to God what is happening to His children. When we pray, it's like a "distress signal". It is picked up by those in Heaven who in turn intercede for us... they amplify the message. Since we're all a part of the Body of Christ, this only seems logical. It's intercessory prayer.

http://www.geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/intercessory.html

KennySe · Sep 19, 2003

My mom and dad pray for me and I pray for them.

When one of us dies the earthly death and if we are received into Heaven, why would one of us STOP praying to God for the two of us still upon Earth? Do the saints in heaven stop praying for felloe Christians?

cindylou · Sep 19, 2003

It seems that we have moved very far away from our original discussion of the survival of non-denom churches. Beetlequeen has asked several questions, thinking they are one issue. It is in fact the "small" traditions and beliefs that separate the Body of Christ and why I am sure that the divisions in the Church will continue.
Cindy

Rising_Suns · Sep 19, 2003

hey brothers and sisters,

I think we have become a culture of "feeling" people. My cousin tells me, he has to go where he "feels" the presence of God "moving" him. I believe this to be the case for most non-denom's. See, there is NO center in these type Churches other than the "preaching". For us we have the Eucharist, they have nothing except preaching and singing. Will they continue to grow? Absolutely.

wonderfully said.

What they fail to understand is that true freedom comes from obedience to authority. It took me a while to understand that, but when you finally get it you can see how empty and self rightous american churches have become.

If I live in obedience to Christ and His Church I am really free. I am free to live my life free of error.

again, wonderfully said.

I don't want to keep us off topic, but I'd like to address these points:

one thing i have a problem with...you say the church is infallible, protected by the Holy Spirit from going the wrong way or teaching the wrong things or whatever...then how do you explain the corruption of the church in martin luther's church?

The infallibility of the church is in its dogma, not in the men within the church. Where there is a human, there will be possibility for corruption and error, but it's in the teachings of the church that remain constant and true.

Why should I become a catholic? The reason so many non-denominational churches believe different things is because they were taught by using snippets from the bible instead of using the snippets in context.

hello sister,
There is still much room for misinterpretation. If you haven't read your bible all the way through, I would suggest doing so. And when you get to John, pay carefull attention to the part where Jesus tells His disciples that the bread and wine becomes His flesh and blood, and that He who does not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood will not have life within Him. Then immediately after Jesus says this, alot of his His disciples became confused, doubted Jesus, and left Him! Why did they leave Jesus? Because what Jesus said to them was so extremely unbelievable that they just couldn't grasp how wine and bread can change into His flesh and blood. Read it for yourself. It's all there.

I understand your many concerns with the church, as I had many as well when I didn't know much about it. But as I learned, the pieces all began to fall into place. I would suggest you post questions here in OBOB so we can address your concers so you can be in a better position to believe what you want to believe. May the peace of our Lord be with you sister.

beetlequeendiva · Sep 20, 2003

They may have left Jesus but they came back - one felt so guilty he hung himself, come on doesn't that tell you something???? I believe in what the Bible tells me - I am still learning about it but I know enough to say the Bible is the truth and it does come from God.

ej · Sep 20, 2003

Beetlequeendiva,

It looks as though you have a lot to learn. The guys here have a lot to offer, you'd do well to relax a little and let them answer your questions.

The Catholics / Orthodox here are used to attack from Protestant / reformed Christians. Whilst I in no way wish to be offensive, attitudes like yours are normally based on the self-righteousness which modern churches teach, and ignorance regarding the history of Christianity, and the authorship / translation / censorship of the bible.

Ultimately, there are thousands of Protestant churches, each believing themselves to be 'teaching the truth' - obviously, this cannot be the case!

Chat with the guys here (they're fantastic!), check out some of the old threads, learn everything you can about the church and its history, and open your mind to losing your prejudice!

Peace be with you
Emma

beetlequeendiva · Sep 20, 2003

I don't think I am prejudice or ignorant - I think I am allowed my own opinion and so are all of you. I feel that the teaching I am receiving is correct, and is the truth. I think that this topic is something that is not going to be agreed upon so I will not be posting here again. If anyone wishes to contact me regarding this you can email me or send a private message.

Reader Nilus · Sep 20, 2003

THE COMMONITORY OF VINCENT OF LERINS written in the 5th CT is very informative on the reading of Scripture. For St Vincent already saw what everyone reading for his or herself leads to. The authority has to be the common teaching of the Church. Tradition is how was the Bible read, new and novel readings are not to be sought after, but how was a text used by the Church Fathers, how is the text used in the Liturgical Worship of the Church, and that also means the daily office.
Jeff the Finn

KennySe · Sep 20, 2003

Okay. I'm going to be calm about this.

I am going to show how a private interpretation is a bad thing. Imagine if this had been taught by a preacher to his congregation. How many of them, trusting him as they do, would take what he has said as gospel truth.

I am using the below as an example of the danger of private interpretation.

*

When Rising Suns posts to beetlequeendiva:

hello sister,
There is still much room for misinterpretation. If you haven't read your bible all the way through, I would suggest doing so. And when you get to John, pay carefull attention to the part where Jesus tells His disciples that the bread and wine becomes His flesh and blood, and that He who does not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood will not have life within Him. Then immediately after Jesus says this, alot of his His disciples became confused, doubted Jesus, and left Him!

She replies with:

beetlequeendiva said:
They may have left Jesus but they came back - one felt so guilty he hung himself, come on doesn't that tell you something???? I believe in what the Bible tells me - I am still learning about it but I know enough to say the Bible is the truth and it does come from God.

Now I realize the discussion was getting a bit heated on this thread, which is why I chose to step out for a while, waiting for the thread to return to its topic of non-denominational churches.
In a round about way, the topic has returned, as I have painted the scenario of a preacher telling his congregation what beetlequeendiva has said to Rising Suns.

They may have left Jesus but they came back

No. They did NOT come back.

John 6:66 (KJV)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:66 (NIV)
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

John 6:66 (CEV)
Because of what Jesus said, many of his disciples turned their backs on him and stopped following him.

**

And so, I return to the idea of a preacher of a non-denominational church, who is his own Bishop, who makes a statement to those assembled.

(Have you heard of the non-denom church who handle snakes.)

**

Read what God says to Adam and Eve about the Tree of Life.
Contrast to what the serpent says, how the deceiver alters ever so slightly the word of God.

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden ["Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"] ; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." ["You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

It is the subtlety of the serpent which is why the Body of Christ MUST be one, as a safeguard.

********

Mark 13:6
Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many.

Philip James · Sep 21, 2003

KennySe said:
No. They did NOT come back.

John 6:66 (KJV)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:66 (NIV)
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

John 6:66 (CEV)
Because of what Jesus said, many of his disciples turned their backs on him and stopped following him.

Hi all,
please forgive me for going off topic, but John 6:66 has always intrigued me. Is it possible that the 'mark of the beast' '666' is referring directly to this passage? Is it posibly referring to those who reject Jesus and no longer follow Him becuase they find eating and drinking His Body and Blood a teaching to hard to accept?
I find it a hard coincidence to dismiss out of hand...

But as for ND churches, they will continue to proliferate, how can they not, as any Joe can claim authority to interpret the bible and gather a group of followers around him. Not having to answer to any other authority but himself makes it easy for such ND churches to continue to show up.
They have no lasting power however as the congregation itself will split as any new 'leader' comes to disagree with the pastor. this produces new ND churches and the cycle repeats itself.

However, the fact that many of these recognize that there should be no 'denominations', no division of the body, provides us the opportunity to reach out to them...for indeed the Catholic church has no denomination, but it does have authority and Truth! Alleluia! it is this very unity with authority that is a strong selling point to those who are willing to humble themselves and follow where the Spirit leads...

Peace and Love!
PJ

Click to expand...

admtaylor · Sep 21, 2003

Although not Catholic ( in a denomenational sense) this thread caught my eye. I go to a non denom. church and have been for a little over a year. Your point about authority is something I've seen in my church. Biblical authority is preached at my church, but as far as I know we don't have deacons. I'm going to ask about that soon. I would have thought I would have seen some sign of them by now. There's also, and I don't want this to sound wrong, a lack of focus on the Father. He's mentioned and given due reverence when He is, but the focus tends to fall like this 80% Jesus (which I don't deny is important), 17% Holy Spirit and 3% Father. I think it needs to be much more equal. I also can't stand the unison music that's used, but that could just be my church and a problem with my preference.

All in all it's a good church though. The Bible is preached and their core beliefs are the same as mine. That's often hard to find these days.

KennySe · Sep 21, 2003

ADMTAYLOR,
Thank you for entering the Catholic Forum. If you have any questions about Catholicism, please ask us on this board. (Nothing like getting the info right from the horse's mouth, right?)

As for your excellent points of no deacons in your church and little mention of our Father, I can see how these might make a church member decide to leave for another non-denom church which DOES have deacons and DOES speak more than 3% of the time of our Father.
And that church member might then decide to leave THAT non-denom church because it is "missing" a few other things. And the cycle could go on and on.

I hope that you will go where GOD leads you, and that you will find true peace in your church.

And again, thank you for sharing your insight on this forum.

Peace,
Kenny

Messenger · Oct 3, 2003

I belong to a nondenomination church. Jesus is over everything for the church. We aren't against Catholics, Baptist or any other denominations. We consider ourselves all as one....One in Christ. We don't wish to separate our oneness by denomination. Non-denomination churches will remain because we are in Christ and Christ never fails.

Love isn't about separation Love is joining together one and another Love as God loves us. God is Love.

Love and God Bless,

Messenger

God will call us all together as his children.....I don't believe God judges us as a denomination but sees our hearts which is filled with the love of Jesus.

BAChristian · Oct 7, 2003

Messenger said:
I belong to a nondenomination church. Jesus is over everything for the church. We aren't against Catholics, Baptist or any other denominations. We consider ourselves all as one....One in Christ. We don't wish to separate our oneness by denomination. Non-denomination churches will remain because we are in Christ and Christ never fails.

Love isn't about separation Love is joining together one and another Love as God loves us. God is Love.

Love and God Bless,

Messenger

God will call us all together as his children.....I don't believe God judges us as a denomination but sees our hearts which is filled with the love of Jesus.

Well said...blessings for you.

Fiskare · Oct 7, 2003

I think these non-denom churches will continue to rise in popularity as long as the denominational churches continue to allow themselves to be involved in public scandal, infighting and bickering.

Christian people want to be close to the Lord, and I think people want that to be reflected in their public lives as well as private, and these churches give them an alternative to supposed boundaries set up by denominational doctrines and the like.

When I was in sem, one of the best students we had left to pastor a non-denom church. We were shocked by his decision, but he had simple reasons- he felt that there was really "no need" for a denomination, as He just wanted people to find the Lord. He also felt that denominations held too many sacred cows, each with its own "emphasis" which held them back from growing in the Lord.

Now, I am not agreeing with this chap in principle, but I do see his reasoning. Everytime I turn on the TV and see some denominational leader doing something that is obviously wrong (you all know about them and the way the media milks the stories for all that they can), I can see how the major denominations can be less attractive for seekers and even for the faithful already within the walls of the churches. I don't think it's a coincidence that the increase in non-denominational church attendance is proportional to the decrease of attendance in denominational churches.

Also, it's quite untrue in at least one sense to say that non-denominational churches are in fact, without denomination. Most form together in less formal, almost fraternal, groups that hold those of similar ilk to themselves in respect. They may not be bound by Confessions of Faith and Creeds, but they are bound fraternally it seems.

ps139 · Oct 8, 2003

I think many non denom churches are composed of ex-Catholics who either never were really taught what the Church teaches, or never really understood. So they hear about a non denom church, check it out, and are amazed at how simply they can be "saved." I think "once saved always saved" is an attractive doctrine, I think Calvinistic fatalism is attractive "I am saved because of God's will and no matter what happens I am saved ebcause it is God's will" and basically, I find these churches to be a watered down version of Catholicism. I have to say there is a LOT of energy and zeal for the Lord in these churches, and a few years ago I was really close to converting (my father and some of my best friends attend these type of churches). But then I realized that there is no basis for authority in these churches, except for the Bible which they all disagree about in certain areas. So how is one to know for sure what is right? The Catholic Church teaches that its teachings are infallible, other churches don't. And I think that Jesus WOULD leave us with an infallible Church, otherwise how would we know what is true? And the nail in the coffin for my almost conversion was when I discovered that many non denominational doctrines were never taught before a few hundred years ago. For instance, do you know that Luther AND Calvin both thought that claims against Mary's perpetual virginity were ridiculous? And the whole Rapture idea was invented in the 1830s? A great book to read is Cardinal Newmans "Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine." He set out to disprove the Catholic Church, he ended up converting to Catholicism. Furthermore, the Catholic Church PUT TOGETHER THE BIBLE. Revelation made it in by one vote. For me to believe in it I must believe that the Church is directed by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised. To sum it up, as Newman said, "to be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant." I think these non-denom churches attract so many people because the people don't do the doctrinal research for themselves, and they accept a watered down version of Catholicism.

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