From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

Thekla · Jan 28, 2009

I can't seem to draw a connection between a proposed "unity under Peter" and the description in Acts of the Council of Jerusalem, and the disagreement between Peter and Paul. If Christ were commanding unity in this manner (Peter), both Paul and James exhibit a variance with this "command".

Uphill Battle · Jan 28, 2009

Thekla said:
I can't seem to draw a connection between a proposed "unity under Peter" and the description in Acts of the Council of Jerusalem, and the disagreement between Peter and Paul. If Christ were commanding unity in this manner (Peter), both Paul and James exhibit a variance with this "command".

QFT.

chestertonrules · Jan 28, 2009

Standing Up said:
This unity began to dissolve circa 120ad, again in 150ad, and finally in 180ad.

But I wonder. Is there biblical or extrabiblical evidence of unity with the See of Rome that you might point me to before 150ad?

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, writing to the church at Rome while travelling to Rome, where he was eaten by lions in the Coliseum(approx. 105 AD):

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans

Greeting

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father:

Chapter 3. Pray rather that I may attain to martyrdom

You have never envied any one; you have taught others. Now I desire that those things may be confirmed which in your instructions you enjoin

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

Pope Clement, writing in about 95 AD to the Corinthians:

Chapter 1. The Salutation. Praise of the Corinthians Before the Breaking Forth of Schism Among Them.

The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us;

Chapter 59. Warning Against Disobedience. Prayer.

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger;

Chapter 63. Hortatory, Letter Sent by Special Messengers.

Right is it, therefore, to approach examples so good and so many, and submit the neck and fulfil the part of obedience, in order that, undisturbed by vain sedition, we may attain unto the goal set before us in truth wholly free from blame. Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

chestertonrules · Jan 28, 2009

Thekla said:
I can't seem to draw a connection between a proposed "unity under Peter" and the description in Acts of the Council of Jerusalem, and the disagreement between Peter and Paul. If Christ were commanding unity in this manner (Peter), both Paul and James exhibit a variance with this "command".

The Unity is with regard to doctrine, not personal behavior.

The decision at the council of Jerusalem was decided by God through a direct revelation to Peter.

Uphill Battle · Jan 28, 2009

ignoring, of course, that James was the one who made the decision.

Thekla · Jan 28, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The Unity is with regard to doctrine, not personal behavior.

The decision at the council of Jerusalem was decided by God through a direct revelation to Peter.

This would suggest that revelation is only of Peter ...

chestertonrules · Jan 28, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
ignoring, of course, that James was the one who made the decision.

Absolutely false.

James just quoted and summarized Peter's statement, which was given to him directly by God.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 28, 2009

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA

There was NEVER a unity of all the Apostolic Churches under the See of Rome.

Never.

There was unity with the See of Rome, never under.

Forgive me...

Can you elaborate?

Standing Up · Jan 28, 2009

Thanks for the references to Ignatious of Antioch and Clement of Rome.

I don't know what to conclude about Clement, given his odd reference to Egyptian gods and mythology with the phoenix reference.

Ignatious was on his way to be martyred at Rome.

Were nearly all the early martyrs at Rome? Paul, Peter, Ignatious, Polycarp, ??? who else?

chestertonrules · Jan 28, 2009

Standing Up said:
Thanks for the references to Ignatious of Antioch and Clement of Rome.

I don't know what to conclude about Clement, given his odd reference to Egyptian gods and mythology with the phoenix reference.

Ignatious was on his way to be martyred at Rome.

Were nearly all the early martyrs at Rome? Paul, Peter, Ignatious, Polycarp, ??? who else?

The mythological references were just his understanding of the truth. The supernatural was more accepted at the time. I don't see it as compromising his Christianity.

I think the early matyrs were primarily at Rome. Stephen was killed in Jerusalem, of course, but that was carried out by the Pharisees.

Rome required citizens to bow to Caesar. Christians wouldn't do it.

Standing Up · Jan 28, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The Unity is with regard to doctrine, not personal behavior.

The decision at the council of Jerusalem was decided by God through a direct revelation to Peter.

Peter knew because of Cornelius.

Paul and Barnabus knew from revelation, experience, scripture.

James knew because of scripture.

They conclude; the apostles and elders concur.

The first problem, what is necessary to be saved. The first solution, write it down, saying it seemed good to us (apostles and elders) and the Holy Spirit.

prodromos · Jan 29, 2009

chestertonrules said:
There are a number of reasons why the Church in Corinth sought help from Rome:
They recognized in Clement the successor of Peter.

What evidence do you have that this is a reason?

They recognized that the center of the faith had moved to Rome because that's were Peter and Paul ended up.

cite?

There was no other Church that claimed authority over other Bishops to whom they could appeal.

What evidence do you have that Rome claimed this within the 1st century?

John

Uphill Battle · Jan 29, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Absolutely false.

James just quoted and summarized Peter's statement, which was given to him directly by God.

sure. If you want to ignore what it says, that's your perogative.

19"It is my judgment, therefore..... (James)

sure doesn't look like a summerization, it looks very much like a DECISION.

calluna · Jan 29, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
ignoring, of course, that James was the one who made the decision.

Perhaps that was a fable spread around by outsiders who wanted to control the church.

calluna · Jan 29, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
sure. If you want to ignore what it says, that's your perogative.

19"It is my judgment, therefore..... (James)

sure doesn't look like a summerization, it looks very much like a DECISION.

'"It is my opinion," James went on, "that we should not trouble the Gentiles who are turning to God."' Ac 15:19-20 GNB

calluna · Jan 29, 2009

chestertonrules said:
St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, writing to the church at Rome while travelling to Rome

Why was 'the bishop of Antioch' travelling to Rome?

Who said that this man was a saint?

Can it be proved that such a person existed?

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 29, 2009

Standing Up said:
This unity began to dissolve circa 120ad, again in 150ad, and finally in 180ad.

But I wonder. Is there biblical or extrabiblical evidence of unity with the See of Rome that you might point me to before 150ad?

It was St. Peter's arrival at Rome that unified all the Churches at Rome. There were several, under different Presbyters.

Christians had been in Rome since Christ's passion. There were some there, from Rome that witnessed what happened that day.

They was not a "unified" Church in Rome until St. Peter arrived.

The unity between these Churches was loose at best. Take a look at the letters written to the Churches at the beginning of Revelation and we see that God had many things against them. They clearly were not all on the same page.

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 29, 2009

calluna said:
Why was 'the bishop of Antioch' travelling to Rome?

To be executed.

calluna said:
Who said that this man was a saint?

Everyone at the time.

calluna said:
Can it be proved that such a person existed?

It is a matter of recorded history by all the Apostlic Churches...

Forgive me...

OrthodoxyUSA · Jan 29, 2009

St. James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem, and head of the first council.

Deal with it.

Forgive me...

calluna · Jan 29, 2009

OrthodoxyUSA said:
To be executed.

And yet he was allowed to write letters.

[fantasy snipped]

From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

Thekla

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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