Free will and determinism

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Freewill is : Choice

Have you made one lately?

Have you made a bad one lately?

Did God pre-destine you to make a bad choice?

Did God pre-destine you to choose what you believe, regarding what i just asked you?

o_mlly · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
You are confusing what isn't necessary to nominate as an atheist ...

What is necessary to nominate as an atheist? Nothing, right?

Bradskii said:
Whether we have free will or not doesn't affect my opinion on the supernatural.

A materialist would differ. Free will is outside the natural order discoverable by science. So, the atheist must chuck this simple self-evident fact with an endlessly complex explanation of randomly firing neurons, shifting pathways of interconnectivity, a mindless social alchemy in which we are lived rather than live.

Atheism purportedly frees the atheist from recognizing his transcendent moral Lawgiver; materialism frees him from the responsibility for his own actions: "I could not have done otherwise."

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
Freewill is : Choice

You must have read the op.

'The question is then not whether we make decisions that affect the trajectory of future events...'

We all make decisions whether there is free will or not. The question is whether those decisions are determined.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

o_mlly said:
What is necessary to nominate as an atheist?

A lack of a belief in gods. I don't know why you asked. You knew that already.

o_mlly said:
A materialist would differ.

It would be better if you addressed what I say rather than what you'd prefer to discuss. They are rarely the same.

'Whether we have free will or not doesn't affect my opinion on the supernatural.'

My opinion on the supernatural was already decided. Decades ago. My position on free will quite recently. I don't need the latter to justify the former.

o_mlly · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
A lack of a belief in gods.

So, to identify as an atheist, nothing ie., a lack of anything, is all that is necessary. Thanks for confirming that void for me.

Bradskii said:
My opinion on the supernatural was already decided. Decades ago. My position on free will quite recently. I don't need the latter to justify the former.

If this thread is just about your opinions then you do not have to justify how you feel. You should have prefaced the OP as an op-ed piece.

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
The question is whether those decisions are determined.

Your decisions are determined by your choice.

And God "fore-knew" what you would "choose' because God knows your thoughts and the intent of YOUR Heart.

If you are born again, you will go to the "Judgement seat of Christ" and you will be judged, (your works) regarding what you did in "His Body"..

He wont be judging HIS Works, that you did.....>He will be judging YOUR choices, = works.

Notice that these are YOUR Thoughts and its the intent of YOUR heart...........and that is not God causing it... that is God KNOWING IT... before you think it, as well as when you do.

A mind that is owned by Calvinism can't understand any of this.... at all. And that is not a "IQ" issue.
That is a "mind blinded" issue.

Or as Paul teaches.

= "WHO= , has BEWITCHED you... so that you do not obey the truth".

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

o_mlly said:
So, to identify as an atheist, nothing ie., a lack of anything, is all that is necessary.

If you have reached the decision that gods do not exist then you can announce that fact to associate yourself with the term 'atheist'. It's quite a journey and not to be taken lightly.

o_mlly said:
If this thread is just about your opinions...

My opinion (and it's only my opinion) on free will was stated as a means to kick start the thread. Your opinions are also welcome. You should offer some on the matter rather than discussing me.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
Your decisions are determined by your choice.

The decisions you choose and the choices you make...well, they are pretty much the same thing. The reasons why you choose those decisions, the reasons why you make those choices will vary. They will be determined by who you are, what you believe, where you were born...the list is endless.

Aviel said:
And God "fore-knew" what you would "choose' because God knows your thoughts and the intent of YOUR Heart.

Some people would then say that it must have been determined. Do you think so?

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
The decisions you choose and the choices you make...

Correct.

YOU chose them.. not God.

God FOREKNEW them......that means that God knows everything that is going to happen next...including what you will do later.

So, where Calvin flew out of his mind, was that he could not understand that KNOWING.. is not the same as CAUSING.
So He created his theology that redefined "Fore-knowledge".. or knowing before it happens, as.. "Pre-determined."

Calvinism at its dark core is... = God knowing, is God causing" and that is absolutely a lie.

And ive never me anyone yet, who is owned by this mental darkness who can understand that God KNOWING all, is not the same as God CAUSING it all.

So, even if i show them that the BIBLE is "foreknowledge"... as its showing us right now that the TRIB is coming.. .and that is not the bible causing the TRIBULATION>. that is the bible REVEALING it as "fore knowledge".

Bradskii said:
Some people would then say that it must have been determined. Do you think so?

Its determined by what you decided to do., next.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
Correct.

YOU chose them.. not God.

And ive never me anyone yet, who is owned by this mental darkness who can understand that God KNOWING all, is not the same as God CAUSING it all.

I don't believe in God. But if I did then I'd agree with you.

Aviel said:
Its determined by what you decided to do.

Close. But you have it the wrong way around. What you decide to do is determined. Just think of any decision you have made. Was there a reason for making it? Unless it was random then the reason, by definition, was why you made it. It was determined by that reason.

Unless you can give me an example of a decision that you've made that wasn't random and was made for no reason at all?

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
I don't believe in God. But if I did then I'd agree with you.

Can you have creation, without a Creator?

Look outside.

Look into the sky.

Have you ever thought about why gravity keeps you grounded?
Who planned that?

Have you ever considered that the SUN is just close enough to the earth to warm it and cause stuff to grow, but not so close that you burn up?

That is by "DESIGN".

Bradskii said:
Close. But you have it the wrong way around. What you decide to do is determined.

What you chose to do next is up to you.
And if you change your mind, you did that also...

Bradskii said:
Unless you can give me an example of a decision that you've made that wasn't random and was made for no reason at all?

I can give you one.

You are going to read what im posting, and consider it.

I didnt do that for you, and nobody but YOU caused that to happen.

You did it.
and if you choose to respond, thats on you also, as you are doing it, because you choose to do it.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
I can give you one. You are going to read what im posting, and consider it. I didnt do that for you, and nobody caused that to happen.

You've just posted a reply to a question I wanted you to answer. I'm going to consider it because you replied. Your response was the reason why I clicked on your reply and why I am now responding. I wouldn't have done that - I couldn't have done that, if you hadn't replied. The one led to the other. I made the choice (no free will doesn't exclude making choices) but it was determined by your response.

All choices are determined by the reasons for making said choices.

You can try again if you like. Give me a decision that you made that wasn't random and for which there was no reason. That is, wasn't determined by anything.

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
You've just posted a reply to a question I wanted you to answer. I'm going to consider it because you replied. Your response was the reason why I clicked on your reply and why I am now responding.

Did you choose to "click"? or did the "click" choose you?

Akita Suggagaki · Apr 28, 2024

Does this question and thread have any practical value? We still must make decisions.

Aviel · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
(no free will doesn't exclude making choices) but it was determined by your response.

The issue with..... "no responsibility for your actions", which is what you are teaching, and believing, is the fact that Accountability is reality, and that is not going to change.

We are responsible for what we do.
We are not dogs and cats, who can't reason, and only react and obey their instinct.

See, what keeps us out of Jail is that we realize : CONSEQUENCE.. and that is FREE WILL and the knowledge of the outcome.

Bradskii said:
You can try again if you like.

Im going to go and watch a B&W movie starring Jean Authur.
I watched one yesterday, and also read a part of a Biography on Her life.

This was not pre-chosen for me to do.
I think you can understand this, but that does not mean you will agree, as you are determined to believe what you want, and that is your choice.
You are free to believe, as you will.

You are a free moral agent, who has the choice to do as tho wilt., and you will again.
You'll make thousands of choices in the next week, and everyone of them you chose, for yourself.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
Im going to go and watch a B&W movie starring Jean Authur.
I watched one yesterday, and also read a part of a Biography on Her life.

Now think of all the reasons why you came to make that decision. You gave two. There are countless others that you can give. All of which determined that you are going to watch a specific movie at a particular time in a particular place.

And don't forget. Making a choice doesn't equate to free will.

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Does this question and thread have any practical Calle? We still must make decisions.

Should Calle have been 'value'?

Yeah, we'll still make decisions. But if you accept that if someone has a mentally illness it reduces their culpability for any criminal actions, then accepting that all decisions are deterministic adjusts one's thoughts about retributive punishment.

durangodawood · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
And I live my life as if it exists as well. The mental gymnastics are just too hard to be doing continuously. But...it can impact on your life. I can argue against retributive punishment for example. If someone does me wrong then I can look for reasons why it happened and not automatically blame the person involved. It's kinda easier to forgive people some times.

I find the older I get the more I appreciate the effects of circumstances and conditioning on a persons choices. I dont have to go full determinism to arrive at a sort of compassion pretty close to what you describe. Problem is, full determinism leave zero room to attribute any portion of a persons choices to their self - as there was no real opportunity to make a choice.

Bradskii said:
There were a few people stabbed to death last week in a shopping mall close to where I live. He was shot to death by a policewoman who was close by when it happened. He stabbed mostly women and even a small baby who was lucky to survive. The baby's mother didn't. And people were saying that shooting him was too easy a punishment. He was evil incarnate to do something like that. But I found I was suggesting that people don't do these things normally, that there obviously was something mentally wrong with the guy.

And it turns out that he did have mental health problems. No real surprise. Did they cause him to do what he did? Undoubtedly. Was he responsible for having those problems? Obviously not. So to what degree was he culpable?

Yeah, even if we all have some kernel of free will operating, it can be easily overwhelmed by involuntary circumstances as strong as mental illness. Free will fans should recognize this.

durangodawood · Apr 28, 2024

Bradskii said:
And don't forget. Making a choice doesn't equate to free will.

Not sure I understand this.

Where is the opportunity for choice making in a deterministic view? You say we all still make decisions in a deterministic view. But Im seeing no room there for a decision to originate in any "I".

durangodawood · Apr 28, 2024

Aviel said:
....
Im going to go and watch a B&W movie starring Jean Authur.
I watched one yesterday, and also read a part of a Biography on Her life.

This was not pre-chosen for me to do.....

You chose that movie for.... reasons, right?

How could those reasons be any different than what they were at the time you picked that film?
If they could not have been different, then wheres the latitude for a different decision?
If you chose based entirely on inherited reasons, then, effectively, the decision was "pre-chosen".

Free will and determinism

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