Frantic damage control in Adventism

Eila · Jan 2, 2008

honorthesabbath said:
I'm not surprised at all that people leave the SDA church. It's a very narrow walk and all are not able to walk it.

I'm not sure of others, but for me the narrow walk of Adventism was pretty easy. When you are raised in the church and your entire existence revolves around the church it is the easy path to take. For me the difficult path was leaving the Adventist one. It is not exactly an easy situation to come to different theological positions when your entire family works for the SDA church.

NightEternal · Jan 2, 2008

moicherie said:
In our zeal to think that people who leave the church are totally wrong and people who stay are totally right we run the risk of arrogance and not reforming when we should because we are too pompous thinking that the shaking is taking place only for those who decided to leave and considereing all leavers as backsliders. The leaders in Jesus day believed they were ' all right Jack' as well..........

BINGO!!!! BOO-YAH!! Give that woman a kewpie doll!

NightEternal · Jan 2, 2008

I honestly don't know what Honor is trying to achieve by coming into this area and peddling her blind denominational patriotism and arrogant, exclusive we are the wheat the rest are tares nonsense. I can only assume she enjoys stirring up controversy, because even I cannot believe she would be naive enough to think we would accept it.

It's like approaching people in Europe after the Berlin wall fell and trying to sell them on Communism. And it makes about as much sense.

Then, after charging the formers here with being 'backsliders' and 'worldly', prances off on her merry way, taking no responsibility whatsoever for her inane blather and the outrage she has left behind.

Still, she is is always in here when most of the Trads have the good sense to stay out. I don't know if that speaks worse of her or us for allowing it.

Of course, this is the same person who, in her dietary arrogance, implied meat-eating Christians are stupid in another thread and no one bat an eye except Free and myself.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42159756&postcount=19

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42163136&postcount=21

So, should I be suprised?

Not.

"God has taken control of my keyboard."

Yeah, right.

RC_NewProtestants · Jan 2, 2008

honorthesabbath said:
People leave churches all the time. I walked out of the Pentecostal church because of their hypocrisy. The even claimed to preach the gospel, but they didn't. Most people leave their church because they have back-slid. Their unconverted hearts drew them back into the world.

I would wager that the majority of those at Honor's old Pentecostal church would deny that they are hypocrites and say they do preach the gospel. Rather like the Traditional SDA church member perhaps. The easy way in any religion is to follow the majority of your religion and accept what they say as truth.

honorthesabbath · Jan 2, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
I would wager that the majority of those at Honor's old Pentecostal church would deny that they are hypocrites and say they do preach the gospel. Rather like the Traditional SDA church member perhaps. The easy way in any religion is to follow the majority of your religion and accept what they say as truth.

Would you like for me to relate an actual event that happened at that church that caused me to leave? I'd be happy to. Then you will see what I am talking about.

honorthesabbath · Jan 2, 2008

NightEternal said:
I honestly don't know what Honor is trying to achieve by coming into this area and peddling her blind denominational patriotism and arrogant, exclusive we are the wheat the rest are tares nonsense. I can only assume she enjoys stirring up controversy, because even I cannot believe she would be naive enough to think we would accept it.

It's like approaching people in Europe after the Berlin wall fell and trying to sell them on Communism. And it makes about as much sense.

Then, after charging the formers here with being 'backsliders' and 'worldly', prances off on her merry way, taking no responsibility whatsoever for her inane blather and the outrage she has left behind.

Still, she is is always in here when most of the Trads have the good sense to stay out. I don't know if that speaks worse of her or us for allowing it.

Of course, this is the same person who, in her dietary arrogance, implied meat-eating Christians are stupid in another thread and no one bat an eye except Free and myself.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42159756&postcount=19

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42163136&postcount=21

So, should I be suprised?

Not.

"God has taken control of my keyboard."

Yeah, right.

I post here because you all bragged so much during the wiki's of the past that YOUR forum was open to ALL and that YOU guys are so opened minded that you welcomed controversy. And I guess I'm like you Night--I will not allow falsehood to go unchallenged.

Did you not mean that back then? Or have you simply changed your mind?

And do you think God has not taken control of my keyboard? Is truth such an annoyance? I only type what is true and feel no need to flame or hurt anyone. But I must stand in the way of falsehood.

I never said meat-eating Christians were stupid. See how you twist my words! Shame de shame, Night.

I also never called 'formers' back-slidders or worldly. I was talking about ALL people who leave their perspective churches--see how you try to rile up animosity against me by adding to what I say?
Shame on you again Night.

NightEternal · Jan 2, 2008

I post here because you all bragged so much during the wiki's of the past that YOUR forum was open to ALL

It is.

and that YOU guys are so opened minded that you welcomed controversy.

That's fine. At least you admit you are here as nothing more than a crap disturber. Just so you are prepared for the fall-out and reaction that will come with engaging in that sort of behavior. Do not come in here and cast about false charges or make claims against people or groups you cannot substantiate or back up and expect us to just let it slide.

See, we have no problems with you posting in here. What we DO take issue with are Trads coming in here knowing full well they will be offended by our comments and topics, only to moan and cry about what a cesspool this area is, reporting everything we say in attempts to 'clean the place up of heresy'.

If you have a 'Woob' agenda (and I know full well you want nothing more than to see this place removed from this forum completely just like he does) I will tell you the same thing I told him:

Get lost and stay out.

Now, if you honestly do not have that agenda (which I highly doubt) you can prove that to us by your actions. When Woob returns here after his ban and picks up right where he left off in his crusade to bring the Prog area down, I trust you will not be right there cheering him on.

Otherwise, we will know for sure you are just blowing smoke here.

And I guess I'm like you Night--I will not allow falsehood to go unchallenged.

Don't flatter yourself Honor. I have not yet seen you mount any sort of able defense of Trad doctrine in the 11 months I have been here yet. You are a poor apologist for thier agenda, offering nothing more than a few proof texts and some cheap shots.

No, you have just written us off as blind, obstinate rejectors of TSDAism.

And I have yet to see you admit there are any problems whatsoever in Adventism, much less adequately answer any of the concerns we have raised about Trad doctrine.

Did you not mean that back then? Or have you simply changed your mind?

You know the score. No reporting, no unfounded claims and accusations, no agenda to have our area removed and we have no issues.

And do you think God has not taken control of my keyboard?

Time will tell. I have already seen hints that there are cheap shots and slams lurking just under the surface already however.

Is truth such an annoyance? I only type what is true

That is debatable.

and feel no need to flame or hurt anyone.

You must not put a lot of thought and consideration in before you type some of the jaw-dropping things I have seen come from your keyboard then.

But I must stand in the way of falsehood.

In your opinion. 'Thus sayeth Honor' don't make something falsehood. That doesn't cut it in here.

I never said meat-eating Christians were stupid. See how you twist my words! Shame de shame, Night.

Oh, riiiight. It was supposed to be a joke. Considering your slurs against meat-eaters in the past, I don't buy that for a New York minute.

But, whatever helps you sleep better at night Honor.

I also never called 'formers' back-slidders or worldly. I was talking about ALL people who leave their perspective churches--see how you try to rile up animosity against me by adding to what I say?
Shame on you again Night.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what you were saying, thanks anyway. Your slurs and attacks against formers in the past leave no doubt in my mind.

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

NightEternal said:
I post here because you all bragged so much during the wiki's of the past that YOUR forum was open to ALL

It is.

and that YOU guys are so opened minded that you welcomed controversy.

That's fine. At least you admit you are here as nothing more than a crap disturber. Just so you are prepared for the fall-out and reaction that will come with engaging in that sort of behavior. Do not come in here and cast about false charges or make claims against people or groups you cannot substantiate or back up and expect us to just let it slide.

See, we have no problems with you posting in here. What we DO take issue with are Trads coming in here knowing full well they will be offended by our comments and topics, only to moan and cry about what a cesspool this area is, reporting everything we say in attempts to 'clean the place up of heresy'.

If you have a 'Woob' agenda (and I know full well you want nothing more than to see this place removed from this forum completely just like he does) I will tell you the same thing I told him:

Get lost and stay out.

Now, if you honestly do not have that agenda (which I highly doubt) you can prove that to us by your actions. When Woob returns here after his ban and picks up right where he left off in his crusade to bring the Prog area down, I trust you will not be right there cheering him on.

Otherwise, we will know for sure you are just blowing smoke here.

And I guess I'm like you Night--I will not allow falsehood to go unchallenged.

Don't flatter yourself Honor. I have not yet seen you mount any sort of able defense of Trad doctrine in the 11 months I have been here yet. You are a poor apologist for thier agenda, offering no more than a few proof texts and some cheap shots.

No, you have just written us off as blind, obstinate rejectors of TSDAism.

And I have yet to see you admit there are any problems whatsoever in Adventism, much less adequately answer any of the concerns we have raised about Trad doctrine.

Did you not mean that back then? Or have you simply changed your mind?

You know the score. No reporting, no unfounded claims and accusations, no agenda to have our area removed and we have no issues.

And do you think God has not taken control of my keyboard?

Time will tell. I have already seen hints that there are cheap shots and slams lurking just under the surface already however.

Is truth such an annoyance? I only type what is true

That is debatable.

and feel no need to flame or hurt anyone.

You must not put a lot of thought and consideration in before you type some of the jaw-dropping things I have seen come from your keyboard then.

But I must stand in the way of falsehood.

In your opinion. 'Thus sayeth Honor' don't make something falsehood. That doesn't cut it in here.

I never said meat-eating Christians were stupid. See how you twist my words! Shame de shame, Night.

Oh, riiiight. It was supposed to be a joke. Considering your slurs against meat-eaters in the past, I don't buy that for a New York minute.

But, whatever helps you sleep better at night Honor.

I also never called 'formers' back-slidders or worldly. I was talking about ALL people who leave their perspective churches--see how you try to rile up animosity against me by adding to what I say?
Shame on you again Night.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what you were saying, thanks anyway. Your past slurs and attacks against formers in the past leave no doubt in my mind.

I agree! The issue is NOT that the ultra-conservatives coming in here and posting. We have ABSOLUTELY NO problem with that. It's that they come in here with the intent of making reports in order to get certain members that the ABSOLUTELY HATE removed from the forum. (Didn't Jesus say that if you are even ANGRY at your brother you are GUILTY of MURDER?).

Post all you want, as far as I'm concerned. We enjoy the dialogue/discussion/debate. It's when we don't agree with you and you start making report after report that we have a problem with you posting here (BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT POSTING EXCEPT TO MAKE YOUR LITTLE REPORTS AGAINST US!). If you have a problem with a point of doctrine or something someone said, THEN SAY SO PUBLICLY! Don't hide behind the weanie anonymous report system! How can you possibly witness to a lost world about their need for Jesus Christ, when on a Chrstian forum you hide!!!???

Now THAT'S an oxymoron!

In Chirst alone...

honorthesabbath · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
I agree! The issue is NOT that the ultra-conservatives coming in here and posting. We have ABSOLUTELY NO problem with that. It's that they come in here with the intent of making reports in order to get certain members that the ABSOLUTELY HATE removed from the forum. (Didn't Jesus say that if you are even ANGRY at your brother you are GUILTY of MURDER?).

Post all you want, as far as I'm concerned. We enjoy the dialogue/discussion/debate. It's when we don't agree with you and you start making report after report that we have a problem with you posting here (BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT POSTING EXCEPT TO MAKE YOUR LITTLE REPORTS AGAINST US!). If you have a problem with a point of doctrine or something someone said, THEN SAY SO PUBLICLY! Don't hide behind the weanie anonymous report system! How can you possibly witness to a lost world about their need for Jesus Christ, when on a Chrstian forum you hide!!!???

Now THAT'S an oxymoron!

In Chirst alone...

Free--I'm going to tell you as I have told others. It's not the constant bashing that you all do to the SDA church, it's HOW you say it.

Your words and manner are so hate filled and dramatic. You say over the top things that have NOT been the experience of many of us. You paint the SDA church in the worst possible light--as if YOU had never belonged to it.

No Free--you guys are not innocent in all of this mess. What you are doing is tantamount to coming into my house and telling me how stupid my decor is and that it's ONLY YOU who has the taste and knowledge to make it RIGHT.

Did you think you wouldn't meet opposition? There will NEVER be agreement between our groups, but I do believe we should begin to disagree in a more amiable manner. After all--both claim to be Christs reps here on earth. We ALL need to begin to act like it.

Cribstyl · Jan 3, 2008

I Take backs my words...:o

Avonia · Jan 3, 2008

honorthesabbath said:
What do you mean grow out of their church? What do you mean by spiritual practice?

Christianity is one, beautiful way to know God. And it's enough. But there are many, many more. Adventism is one tiny slice of Christianity. Some people leave their church because they find better pathways to knowing God.

Spirituality is how we explore our nature and come into greater unity with God and all of God's creation.

honorthesabbath said:
My church is VERY community oriented.

That's good to hear Honor!

And to take the conversation deeper, if I visited your community and starting talking with random people on the street, would most people in your community identify your church as the one that assists the homeless, protects the environment, and feeds the hungry? Are you the community hub of continuing education in areas like relationships, health, money, addiction, and parenting? Are you a center for philanthropy? Do people with resources see your church as the best partner to create something fantastic for the community?

honorthesabbath said:
On the Conference level or local?

Although I pay tithe because I wish to support the organization, I struggle with this use of my resources. There are a growing number of people who are leaving the church for this one reason. Using their personal leverage to support a church that acts more for the end of time than for the present time.

honorthesabbath said:
Meaning about what? Or for what? Or WHAT?

Meaning that comes from being connected to God! In many of the spiritual traditions I've studied and practiced, this is called raising your vibration. That's sort of close to what it feels like. There's no way to really explain this with words. It's like trying to explain falling in love. It's my sense that this is why people who pursue a spiritual path care less and less about defending their religious path.

honorthesabbath said:
I've been SDA for over 30 yrs, I left a church that claimed Jesus, but their hearts where far from Him. But I have not found that to be true in my local SDA church. Jesus LIVES within them. I KNOW--I have seen Him there.

They you should stay where you are because it's working for you! But continue to ask questions about other places. The difference you are experiencing from your current place to your former place exists in a future place relative to your present place. It's big out there.

honorthesabbath said:
And many blessings in this New Year to you as well!

Thank you! Thank you!

reddogs · Jan 3, 2008

edited...

StormyOne · Jan 3, 2008

reddogs said:
Exploring nature is what some close to me said was the path they were going in their 'Spirituality' as they didnt want to be restricted by Gods 'borders', and it lead them to the worship of 'Mother Earth' instead of God, then the power of Wicca and Satanism...so I dont know how good that path is...

how did you arrive at that conclusion based on what Avonia wrote? That's a stretch, even for you Red....

reddogs · Jan 3, 2008

StormyOne said:
how did you arrive at that conclusion based on what Avonia wrote? That's a stretch, even for you Red....

Missed the word 'our'....

freeindeed2 · Jan 3, 2008

reddogs said:
Exploring nature is what some close to me said was the path they were going in their 'Spirituality' as they didnt want to be restricted by Gods 'borders', and it lead them to the worship of 'Mother Earth' instead of God, then the power of Wicca and Satanism...so I dont know how good that path is...

Huh?

Red, we are nature, and being in tune with all that God created is not the worship of 'Mother Earth' or Wicca or Satanism. Last I checked humans were created along with everything else. Maybe you should ask some direct questions of Avonia before suggesting that she's worshiping the creation rather than the Creator, or involved in Wicca or Satanism.

reddogs · Jan 3, 2008

freeindeed2 said:
Huh?

Red, we are nature, and being in tune with all that God created is not the worship of 'Mother Earth' or Wicca or Satanism. Last I checked humans were created along with everything else. Maybe you should ask some direct questions of Avonia before suggesting that she's worshiping the creation rather than the Creator, or involved in Wicca or Satanism.

I edited it...

NightEternal · Jan 3, 2008

Free--I'm going to tell you as I have told others. It's not the constant bashing that you all do to the SDA church, it's HOW you say it.

We do not 'bash' the church. We question and address the problem areas. You just see it as 'bashing' and try to use the most negative word possible to describe what we are well within our rights as discerning, thinking human beings to do.

The prior generation of SDA's just accepted what was served without question because they were told they had to, and the Prophetess said so, and that was that. Ask questions and you will be cast out of the 'Ark Of Safety'. That does not cut it with us, nor will we be made to feel guilty for questioning just because rehtoric such as 'bashing' is being used to describe our activities. We are not afraid to question and challenge. My generation has questions regarding Adventism, lots of them, and we will not be bullied or intimidated into silence. We will get to the truth of the matter, you can bank on that. And we will not tolerate any obscurantism, denial, suppressed information and weak excuses and apologetics hindering our search.

Your words and manner are so hate filled and dramatic.

More extreme rhetoric meant to demonize the questioning process. We do not 'hate' the church. But I have told you this hundreds of times before and yet you still continue to bear false witness.

If you cannot bear the questioning and analyzing of Adventism process, I suggest you just stay in your own area where you will only hear what you want and have your ears tickled.

What did you expect to find in here, an SDA pep rally? No. There are other areas on this forum and other boards where you can get that.

As for dramatic, that is insulting. Why don't you ask those here who gave up thier livelihoods, homes, friends, families, everything they ever knew, everything they ever held as truth and believed in, enduring ostracism and the pariah treatment, all because they left the church, how 'dramatic they are being? Please, you bother me.

And don't give me this baloney about how you left the Pentacostal church and that was the same thing. There are no cult tactics being used there, and they do not mess with your mind by drilling into your psyche that you will be lost and recieve the mark of the beast if you leave. That is not even remotely a fair comparison and you know it. Leaving Adventism is the most excruciating, agonizing process someone can endure, because it is your salvation at stake in the decision, or so you are told. And since you will never experience that trauma, you feel at liberty to minimize and insult those who have. That is disgusting, to say the least.

You deny what of we who are still in the church have experienced in our years in the denomination because you yourself have not experienced it. And since you have not experienced it, they must be fabricated, or, at the very least, 'over-dramatized'. Heavens, your precious SDA church, dressed in virginal white, cannot possibly have so many problems. Now quit being so 'dramatic' and tow the line like everyone else. It's all in your imagination, don't you know?

Do you even read what you type and how condescending and patronizing it comes across?

You say over the top things that have NOT been the experience of many of us.

Ergo, you have not personally experienced any of it so therefore it is not happening and we are just being 'over the top'.

You need a reality check Honor, and in a bad, bad way.

You paint the SDA church in the worst possible light--as if YOU had never belonged to it.

No, we deal with our own personal expriences, and they are, by far, not all positive.

How are you any different than the charges you make by portraying the church in the best possible roses and sunshine light as possible?

Get real. The church needs reform, and if you don't like it, tough. Do not try to prevent those of us who are working towards a better Adventism from doing what they feel called to do.

No Free--you guys are not innocent in all of this mess. What you are doing is tantamount to coming into my house and telling me how stupid my decor is and that it's ONLY YOU who has the taste and knowledge to make it RIGHT.

You can live in your denial all you want, I could care less. But don't you dare label what reformers are doing as 'bashing', because it is blatantly dishonest and deliberately infammitory.

Questioning and analyzing WILL happen wether you like it or not and wether you are comfortable or not. Get used to it. This whole board does not bow to the almighty comfort level of Honor.

It's just like Moicherie said: If it had been up to people like you, the Reformation would have been a pipe dream. Luther would have been written off as 'over-dramatic'.

True, so very true.

Did you think you wouldn't meet opposition?

You can oppose it all you want. Reform and change is going to be worked towards in spite of your opposition. And if you come into OUR AREA and attempt your feeble apologetics, don't be suprised when you are cut down to size.

The playground is big, so you don't come in here and stick your chest-puffing, denominational patriotism in our faces and not expect opposition from US.

There will NEVER be agreement between our groups,

Thank God.

but I do believe we should begin to disagree in a more amiable manner. After all--both claim to be Christs reps here on earth. We ALL need to begin to act like it.

Then quit questioning our motives and casting us in the most negative light possible with infammitory rhetoric. How can you possibly come in here, diminish and downplay the issues as 'overly-dramatic and overblown', minimize our experiences, practically imply we are lying or, at the very least exaggerating our experiences, and then plead for amiable discussion?

Your own words have negated what you claim you are trying to achieve!

Mankin · Jan 4, 2008

I couldn't agree more Night.

Mankin · Jan 4, 2008

It seems that the trads are always complaining about our bashing of their doctrines. The only way we could be truly bashing it was if we got on T.V. and made the doctrines look like a complete joke through many jokes and pokes at the doctrines. We rarely do this. In fact most of the time we intelligently discuss the doctrines. It is honor who addresses people to distract us from discussing our doctrines.

NightEternal · Feb 27, 2008

Wisdom this young man speaketh!

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