Forum for Presbyterians

Look Homeward Anglican · Aug 10, 2006

Greetings brothers and sisters!

You are hard to find. Why is there no forum called "Presbyterian?"

I have a sincere question about election that I was hoping to ask either a PCUSA or PCA member, and that is this:

Who are the elect, and how do they know they are God's chosen?

bradfordl · Aug 10, 2006

Who are the elect

All saved people.

and how do they know they are God's chosen?

Westminster Confession of Faith says it this way:

Chapter 18:
Of Assurance of Grace
and Salvation

18:1 Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation (Deu_29:9; Job_8:13, Job_8:14; Mic_3:11; Joh_8:41); which hope of theirs shall perish (Mat_7:22, Mat_7:23): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace (1Jo_2:3; 1Jo_3:14, 1Jo_3:18, 1Jo_3:19, 1Jo_3:21, 1Jo_3:24; 1Jo_5:13), and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed (Rom_5:2, Rom_5:5).
18:2 This certainly is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope (Heb_6:11, Heb_6:19); but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation (Heb_6:17, Heb_6:18), the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made (2Co_1:12; 2Pe_1:4, 2Pe_1:5, 2Pe_1:10, 2Pe_1:11; 1Jo_2:3; 1Jo_3:14), the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God (Rom_8:15, Rom_8:16): which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption (2Co_1:21, 2Co_1:22; Eph_1:13, Eph_1:14; Eph_4:30).
18:3 This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be a partaker of it (Psa_77:1-12; 88:1-18; Isa_1:10; Mar_9:24; 1Jo_5:13): yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto (1Co_2:12; Eph_3:17-19; Heb_6:11, Heb_6:12; 1Jo_4:13). And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure (2Pe_1:10); that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance (Psa_4:6, Psa_4:7; Psa_119:32; Eph_1:3, Eph_1:4; Rom_5:1, Rom_5:2, Rom_5:5; Rom_14:17; Rom_15:13): so far is it from inclining men to looseness (Psa_130:4; Joh_3:2, Joh_3:3; Rom_6:1, Rom_6:2; Rom_8:1, Rom_8:12;1Co_7:1; ***_2:11, ***_2:12, ***_2:14; 1Jo_1:6, 1Jo_1:7; 1Jo_2:1, 1Jo_2:2).
18:4 True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light (Psa_31:22; Psa_77:1-10; 88:1-18; Son_5:2, Son_5:3, Son_5:6; Isa_1:10; Mat_26:69-72; Eph_4:30, Eph_4:31): yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived (Job_13:15; Psa_51:8, Psa_51:12; Psa_73:15; Isa_1:10; Luk_22:32; 1Jo_3:9); and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair (Psa_22:1; 88:1-18; Isa_54:7-10; Mic_7:7-9).

Look Homeward Anglican · Aug 10, 2006

Thank you. This does not sound at all like what I thought: that Presbyterians believe God has created many souls with the intention of damning them, and that he selected the elect on a whim and that they can not know who they are.

In truth, by believing in Jesus and striving to serve him, I could know that I am one of the elect, yes?

heymikey80 · Aug 10, 2006

SeenAndUnseen said:
Thank you. This does not sound at all like what I thought: that Presbyterians believe God has created many souls with the intention of damning them, and that he selected the elect on a whim and that they can not know who they are.

In truth, by believing in Jesus and striving to serve him, I could know that I am one of the elect, yes?

Yes, you become aware that you know Christ Jesus through following Him.

Given that you've heard the same old accusation which now for four hundred years has been wrongly alleged of Reformed believers (including Presbyterians), can I point you to the conclusion of one of the synods where this was early on alleged of the Calvinists? Here's part of its conclusion

Synod of Dordt said:
And so this is the clear, simple, and straightforward explanation of the orthodox teaching on the five articles in dispute in the Netherlands, as well as the rejection of the errors by which the Dutch churches have for some time been disturbed. This explanation and rejection the Synod declares to be derived from God's Word and in agreement with the confessions of the Reformed churches. Hence it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;
--that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;
--that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
--that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

edie19 · Aug 10, 2006

SeenAndUnseen said:
Thank you. This does not sound at all like what I thought: that Presbyterians believe God has created many souls with the intention of damning them, and that he selected the elect on a whim and that they can not know who they are.

In truth, by believing in Jesus and striving to serve him, I could know that I am one of the elect, yes?

Because the others have done a fine job of answering, I'm not going to add anything other than to point out that God does nothing on a whim. Everything He does has a purpose - to further glorify Himself.

edie

CCWoody · Aug 13, 2006

Well, I'm Presbyterian: PCA. You can ask me anything you want. I never bite unless you blow in my face.

Who are the elect, and how do they know they are God's chosen? ~ SeenandUnseen

CHAPTER III. (Westminster Confession)

Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

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Look Homeward Anglican

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