Formal Debate Peanut Gallery - Atheistic Secular Humanism...

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit".
But, after regeneration, our soul has to "grow up into Him" that "Christ be formed in you"; which transformation takes an equivalent process to physical growing up of a baby. Problem is, after Satan fails to stop a person from being born again, he then tricks them into trying to live a 'Christian life' by their old, fallen creation life- NOT God's life in Christ through the Spirit into their spirit. The false way is easier, requiring only natural strength self-effort. The other way requires the denial of the self to live Christ as your person. Religion only changes your behavior, it doesn't change your nature. And its purpose and result is to keep man and God separate. Turning over a new leaf is much quicker, but not of eternal value.

Loudmouth said:

I understand that you believe those things. What I am asking is if you can demonstrate them to be true independent of your belief.

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I tried to in the previous post. There are a number of things we can use to determine the truth. This can show the error of some of the man made truths. It can show that by following the ways of God it can lead to a better way of life. But any of these on their own wont satisfy the amount of evidence you or any non believer will require. There will always be an objection about how the evidence is interpreted so it is pointless really. But some of this evidence I believe can be some circumstantial proof that the truth of God has some merit to it.

All you have to do is take a topic like sex for example and apply the truths of God according to Jesus and the ways in which mankind believes is right and acceptable and see what the outcomes are. Like I said this isn't complete proof but it can be some proof IMO. It doesnt automatically mean that Gods truths are real but it can point in that direction.

According to who? Men? You?

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No according to Him. That is what He was crucified for, for claiming to be the Son of God. That part is accepted by most historians.

stevevw said:

I tried to in the previous post. There are a number of things we can use to determine the truth. This can show the error of some of the man made truths. It can show that by following the ways of God it can lead to a better way of life.

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Do we need God telling us those things in order to discover morality? Also, if we followed some of God's commands, people would consider that immoral today. For example, God commanded his people to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Today, we consider the wholesale slaughter of women and children to be immoral.

No according to Him.

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You keep quoting the Bible, and the Bible is not God. The Bible was written by men.

Loudmouth said:

Do we need God telling us those things in order to discover morality? Also, if we followed some of God's commands, people would consider that immoral today. For example, God commanded his people to commit genocide against the Amalekites. Today, we consider the wholesale slaughter of women and children to be immoral.

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God also considers killing wrong. One of the 10 commandments is thou shall not kill. So this would seem contradictory to have these two acts in the same part of the bible and in some cases in the same book of the bible. The writers would have known this and therefor be putting in contradictory messages that would undermine what they are claiming in the first place.

The examples of Gods judgements on certain people including Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood are hard to understand and look on the surface that God is being cruel. But we dont know the bigger picture of what was happening in Gods divine plans for a greater purpose. But the people that were judged and destroyed were done so as God had demanded because they had gravely sinned and rejected God. They would have spread their sin as it was with the flood times and were not going to repent. But this was also a time when God was establishing the laws for mankind. There was no Jesus and so there was a disconnect. The judgements had to be strong to stop the spread of sin. It was showing people that they did sin and there wer consequences for sin. The punishments and the sacrifices and rituals were all done to atone people for their sins. But like the punishments were a set of measures to establish sin and repentance. This was all leading up to the coming of Jesus.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and so now there does not need to be all that sacrifice and method of punishment. Jesus now becomes the ultimate sacrifice and makes the connection between man and God. Jesus was God coming down to earth so that we could know Him and see the way back to God. In Jesus we have complete forgiveness for our sins and are transformed into a new person who wants to be obedient to God and please. Him. We have the power of sin in Jesus because He defeated sin and death which is the wages of sin.

So thats why now we go be Jesus and His teachings and not the old testament. Jesus said to love others as we love ourselves and to turn the other cheek. To love you enemies. That not only should we not kill but that even harboring anger we are in danger of killing. So this wasn't just about a list of do's and dont's. Jesus was talking about a change in a persons heart, a change from the inside out. That change comes from accepting Jesus and being born again.

You keep quoting the Bible, and the Bible is not God. The Bible was written by men.

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Yes but it is about God. The new testament quotes what Jesus said from witnesses. It has 1st hand accounts of the life of Jesus either from the witness themselves or from people who knew the witnesses and it being passed on. The key is Jesus as He is claiming to be the Son of God and reflecting God while on earth. So in Him we can see what God was like. There is no ambiguity and it is clearly seen. But we have to accept this through faith. There was a man named Jesus and He was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God. We have to decide whether He and His followers were telling the truth or not.

stevevw said:

The examples of Gods judgements on certain people including Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood are hard to understand and look on the surface that God is being cruel. But we dont know the bigger picture of what was happening in Gods divine plans for a greater purpose.

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For me, this is the scary part of surrendering your own sense of morality in the name of obedience to a religion. You are trying to justify genocide.

Yes but it is about God. The new testament quotes what Jesus said from witnesses.

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We don't know that those words were ever said, or if those events ever happened. That's the problem. You are putting your faith in men.

Loudmouth said:

For me, this is the scary part of surrendering your own sense of morality in the name of obedience to a religion. You are trying to justify genocide.

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[FONT=&quot]There is no own morality. You still have to use reason to determine what is right and what is wrong. But to leave it to ones own interpretation based on a subjective view is really where it can become the scary part. Because it is based on man made views and we know that even when there is a consensus it can be wrong. Look at the coalition of the willing. It was all justified and made right and then sanctioned by world bodies. It was being justified on the basis of an evil act that needed to be snuffed out in the name of humanity. But there were other motives and reasons deep behind this and look what is happening now. This action has lead to even more complicated situations that were inflamed by these actions.

So there needs to be an independent basis to judge what is right and what is wrong. If you look at the bible examples and understand what is going on you will see that there needs to be some action against evil but it needs to be judged and established as truly being evil and the actions need to be justified. In all cases where God has acted though on the surface it can seem wrong there are good reasons. God is all knowing and can see the bigger picture and these people were sinning beyond a point where the sin would act like a cancer and destroy mankind.

There was something very important being established for Gods holy people and the preparation for the coming Messiah. This would save mankind and finally defeat the power of sin and death. The thing is people don’t look beyond this worldly life and make it the most important thing. They don’t see the battle for our souls because they don’t believe in the first place. But it is way more important to to save your eternal life than your worldly one which only lasts a drop in the ocean of time. God is a God of love but there does need to be judgment for evil and sin. We have to understand both sides to God and one without the other do not understand who God really is.

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We don't know that those words were ever said, or if those events ever happened. That's the problem. You are putting your faith in men.

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Yes that’s right it comes down to faith. It’s like someone coming to you and saying truly I tell you that this is the truth in what I say. You have to decide if they are telling the truth. But at the same time the bible itself says you can completely judge this based on the way this world sees things. Evidence is important for this life but we need to ask ourselves is there anything else beyond that that may have an influence. Being rigid and not considering possibilities will not allow you to even see that in the first place. It is not letting go of logic and reasoning.

It is using that but then taking a step beyond that when you cant reason no more. Once you take that step and trust God then you can see beyond what the eyes of this world can see. This is where faith says the assurance of things unseen. The assurance means there is something that confirms and assures us that it s right. That it sits well within us and speaks to our senses beyond the evidence. It is not based on totally blind faith like people think. But worldly think based on naturalistic methods can try to find and want a explained reason for everything. Even if there maybe something that cannot be explained. It is more about the thinking than the reality.

There is a good video I found on the subject of Gods actions in the old testament.
Ravi Zacharias Q & A: God's Sovereignty and the Genocide of the Old Testament - YouTube

stevevw said:

[FONT=&quot]There is no own morality. You still have to use reason to determine what is right and what is wrong. But to leave it to ones own interpretation based on a subjective view is really where it can become the scary part. Because it is based on man made views and we know that even when there is a consensus it can be wrong.

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And how does religion solve this?

So there needs to be an independent basis to judge what is right and what is wrong. If you look at the bible examples and understand what is going on you will see that there needs to be some action against evil but it needs to be judged and established as truly being evil and the actions need to be justified.

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Yes, and how does religion do this, except by asserting that "God said it!" That's a poor justification.

In all cases where God has acted though on the surface it can seem wrong there are good reasons. God is all knowing and can see the bigger picture and these people were sinning beyond a point where the sin would act like a cancer and destroy mankind.

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If God is all knowing and sees the bigger picture then God could have prevented the evil from ever taking root to begin with. He didn't have to wait until it reached a point where genocide was, according to some, the only way to rid the land of evil. Being God, he surely could have prevented the evil in other ways. You are making excuses for the Biblical God.

Archaeopteryx said:

And how does religion solve this?

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Thats where I believe in an objective truth about right and wrong. There has to be a set of morals that stand alone and cannot be compromised or corrupted. Whether its fro God or something thats part of our makeup or reality is something that has to be decided. But I personally believe it comes from Jesus. But it is something I believe is in all of us and it is our conscience that can know the truth of this. But we can block it out or make up reasons why the truth of God is not justified. This is normally done through man made versions of truth. But if we think about it and apply some reason and are honest then we all should be able to hear the voice of truth within us.

Yes, and how does religion do this, except by asserting that "God said it!" That's a poor justification.

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It should be more than just God said so. It has to be assessed and checked to see if it stands the test of reason and other values that should apply to morals. If someone says I can kill in the name of God such as ISIS or Charlie Mason then we can look at what the moral of not killing is all about. That should represent treating life as valuable and precious. The basic truth of do unto others as you would have them do to you for example. If it is not fitting in with this reason then it is more than likely man made ideas trying to be justified by gods or religion. But also there is an aspect of mans hate and motives mixed in with something they try to say is good or comes from a religious origin. It can be deceptive but can also be exposed.

If God is all knowing and sees the bigger picture then God could have prevented the evil from ever taking root to begin with. He didn't have to wait until it reached a point where genocide was, according to some, the only way to rid the land of evil. Being God, he surely could have prevented the evil in other ways. You are making excuses for the Biblical God.

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But you are injecting behaviors and thinking according to you as to how God should have been. This is according to your limited thinking on our scale and not Gods divine level in which we could have no idea.

Also God coming in and controlling things by taking an element of something away from its full potential or effect may cause other problems and effect everything so that our reality isn't the way it is. Maybe our reality can only be this way to be our reality. Maybe our reality also has to allow us to have a certain amount of control and say in the matter otherwise we will not be complete people or know see things in the same way.

Its easy for someone to be the director of how life should have been made being a small subject within that big reality that may extend to things beyond our reality that we can never know about at the moment. Its like saying maybe the wind shouldn't blow the way it does to cause hurricanes. The wind is the wind and it has to have all its potential and elements to be the wind. You cant start changing it and then limiting it because then it will also affect every other part of weather in general and then the total environment ect. It is all connected and has to be to be our reality. Just the same as the laws of physics I believe this is the same for us as spiritual beings with moral laws.

But when it came to the will of man in the old testament God allowed people to play out what they were wanting to do. If they decided to reject God then God would warn them and give them signs. If they still decided to go their own way then God allowed this and it says that in the bible. This showed God gave us that right to choose. But He also gave those people ample time to change and repent but He then allowed for the situation where their sins became complete and they reached a point where they had completely moved away from God and were not going to change. Even though He knew that this would be the case he didn't judge them until they had reached this point in some cases. This happened with the Canaanites where they had reached a point of depraved sin of bestiality and child sacrifice.

So just as we see that there has to be punishment so does God. But in a greater way. We see it in our secular societies so that we have consequences and can keep control here on earth. But God is seeing things from a divine and spiritual aspect as well and the saving of our souls. There is a battle going on between Satan and God for our souls. Sin is a cancer and God knows this. The way had to be made for Jesus to come to defeat sin and the physical death forever. In the end there has to be accountability. If there is good and evil right and wrong then there has to be accountability. We cant deny our responsibility in the scheme of things.

stevevw said:

Thats where I believe in an objective truth about right and wrong. There has to be a set of morals that stand alone and cannot be compromised or corrupted. Whether its fro God or something thats part of our makeup or reality is something that has to be decided. But I personally believe it comes from Jesus. But it is something I believe is in all of us and it is our conscience that can know the truth of this. But we can block it out or make up reasons why the truth of God is not justified. This is normally done through man made versions of truth. But if we think about it and apply some reason and are honest then we all should be able to hear the voice of truth within us.

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You haven't really answered the question, steve. How does religion improve the situation?

It should be more than just God said so. It has to be assessed and checked to see if it stands the test of reason and other values that should apply to morals. If someone says I can kill in the name of God such as ISIS or Charlie Mason then we can look at what the moral of not killing is all about. That should represent treating life as valuable and precious. The basic truth of do unto others as you would have them do to you for example. If it is not fitting in with this reason then it is more than likely man made ideas trying to be justified by gods or religion. But also there is an aspect of mans hate and motives mixed in with something they try to say is good or comes from a religious origin. It can be deceptive but can also be exposed.

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From what you've written, it sounds like we don't need religion to derive morals at all.

But you are injecting behaviors and thinking according to you as to how God should have been. This is according to your limited thinking on our scale and not Gods divine level in which we could have no idea.

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You're doing the very same thing, steve! You're evaluating God as 'good' according to your "limited thinking on our scale."

But when it came to the will of man in the old testament God allowed people to play out what they were wanting to do. If they decided to reject God then God would warn them and give them signs. If they still decided to go their own way then God allowed this and it says that in the bible. This showed God gave us that right to choose. But He also gave those people ample time to change and repent but He then allowed for the situation where their sins became complete and they reached a point where they had completely moved away from God and were not going to change. Even though He knew that this would be the case he didn't judge them until they had reached this point in some cases. This happened with the Canaanites where they had reached a point of depraved sin of bestiality and child sacrifice.

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And this is not good, steve. The Biblical God allowed evil to take root and to grow until it reached a point where he decided to intervene by genocide. His intervention would have resulted in the deaths of even the infants and young children. What evil were they guilty of? What part of this do you consider 'good'? You are again making excuses for the Biblical God's bad decisions.

Archaeopteryx said:

You haven't really answered the question, steve. How does religion improve the situation?

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religion itself cant improve the situation because this is something humans make up just like politics or any philosophy for life. Just because it has religion attached to it doesn't make it right. It is something beyond religion and this world. It is divine and spiritual and something like the laws of physics but spiritual laws that are a part of us and everything. They have always been there and we can know about them by tuning into God through Jesus.

If we follow the teachings of Jesus then we would find true peace and the answers to our problems. It doesn't mean that there will be no problems but it means that Gods will would be done which would be a step towards changing things for the better. Gods laws are above all human laws and Gods truth through Jesus is the only real truth. As Jesus said He is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.

From what you've written, it sounds like we don't need religion to derive morals at all.

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No its not religion, it is something spiritual and beyond man made religions and institutions. That is what is getting us in trouble trying to do it our way. But with religion it can be the greatest deception that fools people into a false sense of thinking its good because it has religion attached to it. That is why Jesus is important because there is no ambiguity. It is clear what Jesus represents and what we are to do. It is simple and clear and requires faith thats all. To accept what God has said about His Son and accept the free gift of grace from God.

You're doing the very same thing, steve! You're evaluating God as 'good' according to your "limited thinking on our scale."

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No your wanting to change Gods thinking and say He should be doing this and that is based on your thinking. I am merely saying what is said about God through Jesus in the bible. This is the key and thats why Jesus came. Jesus was God incarnate. We have a clear picture of God now and its not a case of us down here and God up in heaven somewhere. We have the example and thats what happened. But the message also shows that we can defeat sin be accepting Jesus.

When we accept Jesus we crucify our earthly flesh natures with Him and we are resurrected a new person with our spiritual Godly nature with Christ when He rose from the dead. Paul speaks about this a lot in the new testament in his books such as in the book of Romans and Galatians (Galatians 5:24-25). 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.…

So there is an example of God but there is also a transformation where we can become more Godly. So we are new people with a God conscience which is in tune with the morals of God written across our hearts and conscience. Sin cannot live in us as it cannot be with a Godly spiritual nature at the same time.

So we are wanting to please God by being obedient to Him and doing the right thing. When we do sin we are more sensitive to it and repent and want to stop doing it. We become more like Christ as we grow. By accepting Jesus we actually put ourselves in tune with those moral truths more fully. The holy spirit is speaking to us and reminding us and instructing us all the time. He is showing us Gods mind and ways and showing us the invisible things of God which are all around us. So we know about God through Jesus's words and teachings in the bible and having the spirit of God in us which acts like a mediator between us and God letting us know about God and His will for us.

And this is not good, steve. The Biblical God allowed evil to take root and to grow until it reached a point where he decided to intervene by genocide. His intervention would have resulted in the deaths of even the infants and young children. What evil were they guilty of? What part of this do you consider 'good'? You are again making excuses for the Biblical God's bad decisions.

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No He didn't allow it as you are thinking. Thats like a person coming up and saying to the authorities its all your fault for making me do this or that. If you didn't do this or that then I would have done this. You should have stopped it all and made my life better so that I wouldn't have had nothing bad happen. But along the way people say to that person if you keep doing this then that will happen and by doing wrong you know that bad things will happen. But the person still does what they are going to do until they learn the hard way.

Have you ever heard the saying you have to give a person enough rope for them to learn. Thats part of life. Otherwise you are being a dictator and trying to force a person to do things your way and are taking away their freedom to even do wrong.

There comes a time where we have to accept responsibility for our actions. Our actions have to be allowed to happen otherwise that is not what life is. It would be a room with cotton wool and unreal. You are blaming God now. He should stop the earthquakes and hurricanes. He should have stopped the drunk man who choose to get drunk and drive his car that killed that little child. This is life and that is how it pans out. We play a part and have to have the room to play that part. God has to give us the room otherwise it isn't life.

stevevw said:

It is something beyond religion and this world. It is divine and spiritual and something like the laws of physics but spiritual laws that are a part of us and everything. There have always been there and we can know bout them be tuning into God through Jesus.

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That isn't beyond religion. That IS religion.

No He didn't allow it as you are thinking. Thats like a person coming up and saying to the authorities its all your fault for making me do this or that.

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Let's say that a police officer was standing on a corner. He watches as a man gets out of his car, picks up a knife, walks right past the officer, and starts walking towards a woman. The woman begins screaming that she knows the man, and that he is going to kill her. The police officer never lifts a finger to stop it. The man stabs the woman and she dies.

Is the police officer a moral person?

There comes a time where we have to accept responsibility for our actions.

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What actions did those 6 month old babies take that required their death?

stevevw said:

religion itself cant improve the situation because this is something humans make up just like politics or any philosophy for life. Just because it has religion attached to it doesnt make it right. It is something beyond religion and this world. It is divine and spiritual and something like the laws of physics but spiritual laws that are a part of us and everything. There have always been there and we can know bout them be tuning into God through Jesus.

If we follow the teachings of Jesus then we would find true peace and the answers to our problems. It doesn't mean that there will be no problems but it means that Gods will would be done which would be a step towards changing things for the better.

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Do you see how this paragraph is contradictory? You begin by stating that religion cannot improve the situation, and end by expressing a religious belief.

No its not religion, it is something spiritual and beyond man made religions and institutions. That is what is getting us in trouble trying to do it our way. But with religion it can be the greatest deception that fools people into a false sense of following God. That is why Jesus is important because there is not ambiguity. It is clear what Jesus represents and what we are to do. It is simple and clear and requires faith thats all. To accept what God has said about His Son and accept the free gift of grace from God.

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You are contradicting yourself again.

No He didn't allow it as you are thinking. Thats like a person coming up and saying to the authorities its all your fault for making me do this or that. If you didn't do this or that then I would have done this. You should have stopped it all and made my life better so that I would have had nothing bad happen. But along the way people say to that person if you keep doing this then that will happen and by doing wrong you know that bad things will happen. But the person still does what they are going to do until they learn the hard way.

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But they didn't have the opportunity to learn the "hard way." They were killed, ending any opportunity to learn.

Have you ever heard the saying you have to give a person enough rope for them to learn. Thats part of life. Otherwise you are being a dictator and trying to force a person to do things your way and are taking away their freedom to even do wrong.

There comes a time where we have to accept responsibility for our actions. Our actions have to be allowed to happen otherwise that is not what life is. It would be a room with cotton wool and unreal. You are blaming God now. He should stop the earthquakes and hurricanes. He should have stopped the drunk man who choose to get drunk and drive his car that killed that little child. This is life and that is how it pans out. We play a part and have to have the room to play that part. God has to give us the room otherwise it isn't life.

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This isn't about learning. The infants and children who God ordered to be killed had no opportunity to learn. They didn't even have an opportunity to sin!

Loudmouth said:

That isn't beyond religion. That IS religion.

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Not really as some religions dont believe in that. It is more to do with the man made practice, rituals, traditions and a way of life. Doing something religiously. Religious laws can be different for each religion. The spiritual laws that are written on our hearts are there within us. They are not dictated by a religion by they are just a part of us.

3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.
re·li gious·ness n.Synonyms: religious, devout, pious.
Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice:

Let's say that a police officer was standing on a corner. He watches as a man gets out of his car, picks up a knife, walks right past the officer, and starts walking towards a woman. The woman begins screaming that she knows the man, and that he is going to kill her. The police officer never lifts a finger to stop it. The man stabs the woman and she dies.

Is the police officer a moral person?

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How would you tell by this. As far as his duty is concerned he has fallen show of taking action in that situation. It will depend on his training and awareness. But there will be a certain expectation that he should be capable of knowing and acting to protect the public. As far as a duty of care is concerned he could be held liable for not acting. But as far as being immoral that is another thing. But a wrong can be an action of neglect and not doing something to prevent a bad situation. But you would have to determine what the level of guilt would be. Was he paying attention. Did the policemen think the women was joking or a known trouble maker. Did he think it wasn't as serious as it was. Was he trained in preventative actions. If he knew that there was grave danger to the women and choose not to act because he just didn't care or was scared or didn't want to get involved then he would have something to answer to. God will be the judge of that and his conscience will either accuse him or excuse him.

What actions did those 6 month old babies take that required their death?

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Yes this is a hard thing to understand and immediately we think this isnt right. I dont know exactly what was on Gods mind and the reasons for this. But God had judge the entire people to be destroyed. God is all knowing and He will even know that the babies and young ones had been infiltrated with sin. That sin had become a part of their DNA you could say. God knew that they would grow and become just like their parents as did every other child before them. God had allowed generations to go by and didn't take actions until that time had elapsed which would have established that every one of those people were beyond redemption and all the future people would be the same.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah show us that God did not destroy innocents. Abraham asked God that He would spare the city of Sodom if there were 50 innocents and God said he would. Then he asked what if there were 40 innocents and God said He would also spare all for the sake of the 40 innocents. Abraham went down to even if there were 10 innocents and didn't dare to go any further. But still God said He would spare the city even if there were 10 or less innocents. There is also examples where God spared the people when they were warned and did repent even though their sin was just as great as anyone's.

The other thing to consider is that some of those babies would have ended up as sacrifices. Plus while the babies were just beginning in life and they hadn't grown into sin they were actually saved into heaven. The bible says that any baby or young one will go to heaven if they die. So they are actually being save for eternal life even though their earthly life was cut short. If they had lived they would have ended up the same as the adults which was to be condemned either for their sin or in sacrifice. So they were damned if they lived but were saved by God be God stepping in and stopping the spread of the sin they were doing.

Archaeopteryx said:

Do you see how this paragraph is contradictory? You begin by stating that religion cannot improve the situation, and end by expressing a religious belief.

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If you look at what Jesus says He even condemns religion. He is saying heaven is within. He condemns the Pharisees and hypocrites who dress in their robes and do their rituals for their religious beliefs. Or those who go around saying you cant eat this and must wash your hands and do all these things to be right before God. This is what I am talking about as religion. This is what all the religions of this world are saying. But the spiritual aspect of God is not about that. A person who is of Christ and lives by the spirit as Paul says is not Greek or Jew, slave or free and they are also not catholic or protestant, Mormon, Jehovah witness, Baptist or pentecostal. But they will be of the same spiritual family no matter what they belong to or where they are in the world.

You are contradicting yourself again.

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Like I said Jesus Himself speaks about the religiosity of the world and that this would be something that deceives people and is false. Jesus is not a religion. Jesus is not a church or set of rituals or do's and dont's. It is a transformation of a person into a new creature.
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 15:8
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"
Luke 17:20–21


20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nnor will they say, 6‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, othe kingdom of God is 7within you.”

But they didn't have the opportunity to learn the "hard way." They were killed, ending any opportunity to learn.

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God had given them the chance. But they rejected His warnings and chose to continue in sin. The longer they did the more it became a part of them until it was never going to change. They had become a part of sin and it was in their DNA. Only God knew this and knew they were never going to change. But He had to allow them to get to that point before taking any action. You have to remember He would have warned them and given them every chance with signs and wonders. Some had seen the great works of God and still turned their back.

Other nations who had these same warnings and signs repented and seen the error of their ways. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Its a bit like when you hear of someone who died from drugs or their way of life. People tried to help but they wouldn't listen. They laughed in the face of death and walked the fine line until it got the better of them. Even leading a sinful life has its consequences just by the fact that its normally full of trouble and danger anyway. But its the persons choice and there comes a point where they go beyond chances as we have seen so many times in life.

This isn't about learning. The infants and children who God ordered to be killed had no opportunity to learn. They didn't even have an opportunity to sin!

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That is why they go to heaven. So if they lived they surely would have been condemned by their own people as sacrifices or they would have grown into sin and then been eternally condemned. So they were actually save. But God knew this and He also knew if they did grow they would be the same as their parents and cultivate the cancer of sin and continue to spread it. The survivors in past conquests that lived had gone on to do this very thing. They grew and continued to sin and came back to destroy the Israelites again.

It was so easy to change your screed into something ISIS would approve of; I just switched the four mentions of "God" to "Allah," and changed "Israel" to "Muslims." Imagine a situation where ISIS goes into an Israeli village and kills everyone, including the children, after giving them a chance to convert:

Allah had given them the chance. But they rejected His warnings and chose to continue in sin. The longer they did the more it became a part of them until it was never going to change. They had become a part of sin and it was in their DNA. Only Allah knew this and knew they were never going to change. But He had to allow them to get to that point before taking any action. You have to remember He would have warned them and given them every chance with signs and wonders. Some had seen the great works of Allah and still turned their back.

Other nations who had these same warnings and signs repented and seen the error of their ways. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Its a bit like when you hear of someone who died from drugs or their way of life. People tried to help but they wouldn't listen. They laughed in the face of death and walked the fine line until it got the better of them. Even leading a sinful life has its consequences just by the fact that its normally full of trouble and danger anyway. But its the persons choice and there comes a point where they go beyond chances as we have seen so many times in life.

This isn't about learning. The infants and children who Allah ordered to be killed had no opportunity to learn. They didn't even have an opportunity to sin!
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That is why they go to heaven. So if they lived they surely would have been condemned by their own people as sacrifices or they would have grown into sin and then been eternally condemned. So they were actually save. But Allah knew this and He also knew if they did grow they would be the same as their parents and cultivate the cancer of sin and continue to spread it. The survivors in past conquests that lived had gone on to do this very thing. They grew and continued to sin and came back to destroy Muslims again.

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Do you approve?

niye said:

It was so easy to change your screed into something ISIS would approve of; I just switched the four mentions of "God" to "Allah," and changed "Israel" to "Muslims." Imagine a situation where ISIS goes into an Israeli village and kills everyone, including the children, after giving them a chance to convert:





Do you approve?

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God is not Allah and Allah doesn't have the same position and authority as God. Though it is said that Islam may have based their beliefs partly on the old testament God because they do use some of the old testament great men like Abraham and Moses. Mohummad even acknowledges Jesus.

But here is the difference. Now Christians look to Jesus and He is the fulfillment of the old testament laws. So anything we need to find out about how we should live and act is in Jesus. The old testament laws was the beginning and to establish the law and show mans sin and his need for God. Jesus was the answer and the completion. Once man had seen he was a sinner under the law and not worthy he needed a savior. He needed a way out because he was not worthy to stand in the presence of God. So we needed a Savior to give us forgiveness and make us righteous with God. That was Jesus. So He is the fulfillment of the laws of the old testament. We dont need to go by this anymore, we dont need to sacrifice animals or do all these rituals and penalties to make ourselves clean and worthy before God. Jesus is the one and final sacrifice that does it all.

So look to Jesus. Do you see anything that ISIS is doing in Jesus. Jesus is without sin and worthy. He teaches us to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies. He says the greatest commandment was to love God and then to love others as you would love yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So Jesus is very different and it is clear as to what Jesus represents. He says He is the only way to God and there is no other. He says beware of these false religions for they are like wolves in sheep's clothing and will devour you. Now there is no ambiguity we have a clear example of how to live. But not just that we have a savior who can transform us into a new creature in God living in the spirit and not the flesh. So we will be seeking to be obedient to God and producing the fruits of the spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

One God, but embodied in the Son to fulfill God's requirements as a man, and now available to apply all that the Father is and all that the Son has accomplished- as the Spirit into our human spirit.
God in Christ is a living, available present Person.
Religion is the organized systemization of man's natural but fallen attempts to come to God without receiving Christ. It is a part of Satan's world system (kosmos) to occupy and deceive man. It will culminate as the religious and material great harlot Babylon in the book of Revelation.
We cannot come to God. God became a man to come to us. Now He is available in Christ as the life-giving Spirit. Only ONE Person ever successfully led a 'christian' life, and that is Christ. Religious self-effort interferes with letting Christ live in us and be lived out from us.
If my dear brothers and sisters in the religious system of christianity were in reality following Christ then they would not be divided. Instead, they have been deceived into 'worshipping' according to their concepts and personal preferences. Satan knows the rules of warfare: divide in order to conquer.

pgardner2358 said:

One God, but embodied in the Son to fulfill God's requirements as a man, and now available to apply all that the Father is and all that the Son has accomplished- as the Spirit into our human spirit.
God in Christ is a living, available present Person.
Religion is the organized systemization of man's natural but fallen attempts to come to God without receiving Christ. It is a part of Satan's world system (kosmos) to occupy and deceive man. It will culminate as the religious and material great harlot Babylon in the book of Revelation.
We cannot come to God. God became a man to come to us. Now He is available in Christ as the life-giving Spirit. Only ONE Person ever successfully led a 'christian' life, and that is Christ. Religious self-effort interferes with letting Christ live in us and be lived out from us.
If my dear brothers and sisters in the religious system of christianity were in reality following Christ then they would not be divided. Instead, they have been deceived into 'worshipping' according to their concepts and personal preferences. Satan knows the rules of warfare: divide in order to conquer.

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To avoid any possible misunderstanding, let me finally, firmly, and completely clarify my position regarding 'Evolution vs. Creationism, et. al.' :
It is absolutely vain babbling (spiritually speaking) to speculate about man's origins. Such speculation is totally from the wrong tree- the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and as such it is totally incapable of conveying spiritual nourishment and edification.
I have no motive whatsoever to attempt to validate 'Evolution'.
However, I am 100% against any and all persons (regardless of purity of motivation) who in any way make the disbelief in Evolution a tenet of the Christian Faith, a Faith given once to all whom God has chosen to be His people.
I challenge anyone to dispute the following assertion: "It is completely possible to believe in 'Evolution' and to receive Christ as one's personal Savior, becoming genuinely born again."

pgardner2358 said:

To avoid any possible misunderstanding, let me finally, firmly, and completely clarify my position regarding 'Evolution vs. Creationism, et. al.' :
It is absolutely vain babbling (spiritually speaking) to speculate about man's origins. Such speculation is totally from the wrong tree- the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and as such it is totally incapable of conveying spiritual nourishment and edification.
I have no motive whatsoever to attempt to validate 'Evolution'.
However, I am 100% against any and all persons (regardless of purity of motivation) who in any way make the disbelief in Evolution a tenet of the Christian Faith, a Faith given once to all whom God has chosen to be His people.
I challenge anyone to dispute the following assertion: "It is completely possible to believe in 'Evolution' and to receive Christ as one's personal Savior, becoming genuinely born again."

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Only MICRO evolution in biological systems as the Bible indicates...and not as the method God used to Create the Cosmos. God made everything in the beginning suddenly, fully formed and fully functioning . Gen 1 and Psalm 33:6-9 . He spoke it and it came to exist from nothing.