According to who? Men?
That is what the Gospels claim, and the Gospels were written by men.
You are just assuming that what men wrote about God and Jesus are true.
Have you read the Old Testament?
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But Jesus was and He made certain claims about Himself and about God the father. When He died He rose from the dead so He showed He was made immortal and overcame the power of an earthly death.
No this is what Jesus claimed . . .
If there is a moral truth then there has to be one moral truth that can be held up. Truth itself points to there being a single truth. So this truth would have to be known by all and this is where I believe that the bible tells us about God being known by all in our hearts and minds. Jesus stated this as well by saying He was the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Well how can they be they dont state anything perverse.
But wait a minute you have just used the claims of what the other religions have said to refute the christian faith as not being unique. It seemed OK to not question their claims. Now you want to start changing the goal posts. Lets just say however the claims are made in all the writings of each religion the christian one makes certain claims. Besides you cant disprove that the so called men who made the claims didn't either see things for themselves or spoke to eye witnesses. At leat they do state in their writings that some were there and saw it and are making those claims themselves. Most other religions dont even do that. We have to go to some other plain or realm to find out. Or we have to believe some person who has so little info about that you doubt they ever existed.According to who? Men?
Like I say you didn't say that when you were stating that other religions make similar claims to the christian religion to make your original point.That is what the Gospels claim, and the Gospels were written by men.
And you are just assuming its not true.You are just assuming that what men wrote about God and Jesus are true.
Of course. No not the old testament again. I seem to be foreve r going over this again and again. The old treatment is the lead up to the new treatment and Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of those laws. Its the same God and Jesus is that God incarnate. There is nothing perverse about Jesus. That is why He came so that we had a clear understanding of God and didn't have to have this distant and sketchy one as was with the old testament. So we go by Jesus now as it is easier to see what God was like as He walked among us.Have you read the Old Testament?
But wait a minute you have just used the claims of what the other religions have said to refute the christian faith as not being unique. It seemed OK to not question their claims.
Besides you cant disprove that the so called men who made the claims didn't either see things for themselves or spoke to eye witnesses.
At leat they do state in their writings that some were there and saw it and are making those claims themselves.
Like I say you didn't say that when you were stating that other religions make similar claims to the christian religion to make your original point.
And you are just assuming its not true.
Of course. No not the old testament again. I seem to be foreve r going over this again and again. The old treatment is the lead up to the new treatment and Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of those laws. Its the same God and Jesus is that God incarnate. There is nothing perverse about Jesus. That is why He came so that we had a clear understanding of God and didn't have to have this distant and sketchy one as was with the old testament. So we go by Jesus now as it is easier to see what God was like as He walked among us.
But it makes it a bit hard to try and show you that the Christian claims may be unique if I can't use them in the first place on the basis that you question if they are real. I have to use those claims whether you believe them or not to show how they may claim some unique things. Then you can say whether those claims are real or not. Otherwise we may as well not have had the debate in the first place.I question all of them. What I was showing is that the claims made by christianity is not unique to christianity. You don't have to believe in every faith in order to compare them.
No but that wasn't the point. The point was you were using unproved claims to dispute my claims about Christianity. So on that basis I was making my claims that Christianity is unique. But now you have taken things into a different ball park and we cant use anything. So there are two different things that need to be established. First does Christianity have anything unique against all the other religions. One can look into this without bringing up whether any of the claims are real or not as an exercise and thats what I thought we were doing. This has been done by many as an exercise to find out. The 2nd thing is about whether religious claims are true or not which is a different fact we are wanting to establish.You are the one making the claim, so the burden of proof lies with you. Do you really think that you can make any claim you want without any evidence, and expect everyone else to accept it as true until they can disprove it?
The difference is that the person that the men of the bible were talking about is a figure in history. So He was real and not supernatural but did supernatural things. We then have to assert whether the men are telling the truth, lying or delusional. Joseph Smith is talking about a supernatural being in the first place that hasn't even been proven to exist.They are still the writings of men. Joseph Smith claimed to have directly interacted with angels and Golden Tablets, and yet you are not mormon.
Because you were using those examples to support your own argument. You cant use something as support and then say I cant use it.Why would I have to?
Well that was another issue but now things have changed. So we cant establish that any religion is unique because we cant establish none are true. Why have the debate in the first place.Until you present evidence, why should I accept it as true?
No its just some use some of the things said in the old testament to show God as evil. Yet we know that overall God is love. Its like the end result justifies the means. We can see in Jesus God more clearly because He was down here on earth. Theres no guessing or re interpretation. Theres no looking at ancient writings and trying to work out what was meant in context, language and culture. So even though there are some hard to understand things in the old treatment that maybe taken the wrong way we can see it clearly with the way Jesus was. Its the same God but seen in a different way. The idea of Jesus was to make the picture clearer for us and establish contact and a way to God.You seem to be admitting that God's Truth was perverse at one point, but the New Testament fixed it. Is that what you are saying?
But wait a minute you have just used the claims of what the other religions have said to refute the christian faith as not being unique. It seemed OK to not question their claims. Now you want to start changing the goal posts. Lets just say however the claims are made in all the writings of each religion the christian one makes certain claims. Besides you cant disprove that the so called men who made the claims didn't either see things for themselves or spoke to eye witnesses. At leat they do state in their writings that some were there and saw it and are making those claims themselves. Most other religions dont even do that. We have to go to some other plain or realm to find out. Or we have to believe some person who has so little info about that you doubt they ever existed.
Like I say you didn't say that when you were stating that other religions make similar claims to the christian religion to make your original point.
And you are just assuming its not true.
Of course. No not the old testament again. I seem to be foreve r going over this again and again. The old treatment is the lead up to the new treatment and Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of those laws. Its the same God and Jesus is that God incarnate. There is nothing perverse about Jesus. That is why He came so that we had a clear understanding of God and didn't have to have this distant and sketchy one as was with the old testament. So we go by Jesus now as it is easier to see what God was like as He walked among us.
Steve,
Do you just assume everything written in books is true?
I would assume you do not, but what method would you use to determine whether claims made in any book are true?
What Method do you use for determining if the written Humanist Manifestos are true in what they have to say ?
I tend to rely on objective verifiable evidence, to determine the veracity of claims.
If none is available, I can certainly speculate like anyone else can or simply say; I don't know.
Same for determining if the New Testament is true . What do you think about the objective verifiable consequences to following the Humanist Manifesto affirmations ? If they showed societal moral decay , would you still uphold the philosophies ?
How does the NT hold up to verifiable objective evidence (historical method) to determine whether it is credible?
I don't give much thought to the Humanist Manifesto, it is of no interest to me.
Regarding society in general? We are doing just fine, with violent crime being the lowest it has ever been and quality of life doing just fine. In fact, the countries with the lowest percentages of it's people who believe in a God, have the highest scores in regards to quality of life indexes.
a. The NT uses the same historicity testing methods and standards that all ancient literary works are applied to , including secular . Just do a google for it unless it is no interest to you and being too much of an affront to your atheistic ideologies and constructs to live by.
b. Since you are an atheistic Secular Humanist, one would think that you would support and have interest in its formal affirmations which are taught to children at an early age and governs American culture .
c. Society in general : Crime and anarchy are at an all time high because morals and ethics are at an all time low from the general populace not desiring absolute moral laws from an absolute Moral Law Provider . Instead it is the fulfillment of the Humanist mantra of 'Man is the Center of all things' that is the catalyst for every societal ill and tragedy we face as a Nation . The countries with the highest percentages of people who are truly Born Again in Christ , have the highest scores in regards to quality, civility, lawfulness, selflessness, compassion, and true regard for their fellow Man/Woman/Child . History has proven that Atheism and Secular Humanism are the absolute worse for a civil society which is the current condition of all western Nations ; Nations weren't mean to be have MAN as the highest form of authority --- that is reserved only for the Creator of us all with Man desiring to be obedient . Christians are looking forward to a time coming when the Creator will have his rightful place and Man will have his rightful place at #2 .
I hope youll get on board so you wont be quite regretful .
c. Society in general : Crime and anarchy are at an all time high because morals and ethics are at an all time low from the general populace not desiring absolute moral laws from an absolute Moral Law Provider .
Instead it is the fulfillment of the Humanist mantra of 'Man is the Center of all things' that is the catalyst for every societal ill and tragedy we face as a Nation . The countries with the highest percentages of people who are truly Born Again in Christ , have the highest scores in regards to quality, civility, lawfulness, selflessness, compassion, and true regard for their fellow Man/Woman/Child .
History has proven that Atheism and Secular Humanism are the absolute worse for a civil society which is the current condition of all western Nations ;
Nations weren't mean to be have MAN as the highest form of authority --- that is reserved only for the Creator of us all with Man desiring to be obedient . Christians are looking forward to a time coming when the Creator will have his rightful place and Man will have his rightful place at #2 .
No I check things out like I do with everything in my life. I have had businesses and investments and I always do my homework. The type of person you are alluding to for me would be someone who gets caught out with scams because they are to trusting. I have done a fair amount of investigation into the history of the bible. But see sometimes the bible can be the greatest history book for itself. If you take the supernatural out of it its a great book for showing the life and times of that period. Many archeological discoveries have backed it up. But if there is a piece that has been claimed to be written by someone and they are stating that what they write is true then I guess there is not to much you can go off to assess whether its true or not. Just like a character witness in court you have to decide whether they are telling the truth.Steve,
Do you just assume everything written in books is true?
I would assume you do not, but what method would you use to determine whether claims made in any book are true?
But it makes it a bit hard to try and show you that the Christian claims may be unique if I can't use them in the first place on the basis that you question if they are real. I have to use those claims whether you believe them or not to show how they may claim some unique things. Then you can say whether those claims are real or not. Otherwise we may as well not have had the debate in the first place.
The 2nd thing is about whether religious claims are true or not which is a different fact we are wanting to establish.
The difference is that the person that the men of the bible were talking about is a figure in history. So He was real and not supernatural but did supernatural things. We then have to assert whether the men are telling the truth, lying or delusional. Joseph Smith is talking about a supernatural being in the first place that hasn't even been proven to exist.
No its just some use some of the things said in the old testament to show God as evil. Yet we know that overall God is love.
But sinse Adam and Eve when man fell God had to set the stage for the coming of Jesus.
I am not sure they are the same as Christianity. But Christianity is different as most other religions talk about living a good level of life that makes a person worthy to be before god. Or obtaining a certain plain or existence that makes you able to be in gods presence. Its about coming up to gods level by doing and living a certain way. Christianity is about realizing we are sinners before God and God coming to us to make us a new person that is worthy to God no matter who we are.Other religions have Gods with children on Earth. Other religions have gods coming down to Earth, resurrecting, and so forth. Christianity is not unique in these aspects.
You cant say that and you have no proof that Jesus never said what He said. You can only make that claim. The New testament states the words of Jesus and they are written in the red. This is claimed by either eye witnesses or people that knew or spoke to the eye witnesses. Now you can say that they are either lying and making up stories or you can say they are deluded but they still make those claims. In fact Jesus was a real person and most historians say that there are certain facts about Him. He was a preacher of come sort and He was crucified for claiming to be God or rather the Son of God. So then you have to say that Jesus was either lying or deluded.You keep claiming that God said this or Jesus said that. This is not true. All of the words you quote were written by men, not God or Jesus. That's the problem.
This is true but it also doesn't mean that they may have been telling the truth. We have a assess that. But I am not sure about some of those people you mentioned. I think when you look into it you can trace the claim as to how it became a myth or that it wasn't based on anything solid. The pharaohs being Gods for example was only based on their beliefs of when they buried them and put them in tombs. But they were only humans up to the time they does and when they were humans they were just men. When they died it was a belief and they didn't come back or or wasn't even claimed they came back and people seen them walking the earth again.Joseph Smith was a real historical figure as well. People can be real historical figures and still have myths written about them. For example, George Washington cutting down the cherry tree was a myth. It never happened, even though George Washington was a real person. Haile Selassie was a very real historical person, but does that automatically mean that he must be the returned Messiah as claimed by Rastafarianism? We know that many pharaohs were very really people, but that doesn't make them into gods because they claimed they were gods.
No I believe you can of course. But at the same time you have to make judgements. The story of Jesus was quickly talked about and there wasn't time to create a myth. There have been other discoveries in archeology as well. The many people that testify and the revolutions that happened. The sacrifices of life for the belief and the power that stems form the movement go beyond stories made up myths. People dont normally lay their life down for myths or lies unless they are very deluded and the people involved didn't seem like the type who were deluded or have those characteristics. Its all just a little to elaborate to be made up.Do you really think it is impossible to write untrue stories about real people?
Yes but then your bring God down to a human level when He was also attributed as creator . all powerful and knowing. These are not the traits of someone who is emotionally unstable and erratic. Besides though people can beat a wife and then say they love them overall you can tell they are an unstable person. The love they speak about isnt a mature love or a true love. It is based on self needs and it is easy to tell. They dont sacrifice their love as a mature person. Gods love is sacrificial as He gave His only son. Jesus doesn't display the characteristics of a wife basher and is wise and loving. So are the people who followed Him which says a lot about Jesus Himself.I know my husband beats me, but he really does love me . . .
Yes but that something had a divine purpose in which you or I dont not understand in the scheme of salvation and restoring the balance of things.An omnipotent and omniscient deity HAD to do something. Sorry, doesn't make sense.
I am not sure they are the same as Christianity. But Christianity is different as most other religions talk about living a good level of life that makes a person worthy to be before god. Or obtaining a certain plain or existence that makes you able to be in gods presence. Its about coming up to gods level by doing and living a certain way. Christianity is about realizing we are sinners before God and God coming to us to make us a new person that is worthy to God no matter who we are.
You cant say that and you have no proof that Jesus never said what He said.
No I believe you can of course. But at the same time you have to make judgements. The story of Jesus was quickly talked about and there wasn't time to create a myth.
Yes but then your bring God down to a human level when He was also attributed as creator .
Apart from my belief that Christ is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE as stated by Him which is an unusual thing to say in the first place. Its like He knew there would issues about which is the best way to live.How do you determine if living that certain way results in proper morality?
No I am placing my faith in God through Jesus. If Jesus claims to be the Son of God then I am placing my faith in Him. The people of the bible are only repeating what Jesus said.You are the one claiming that they are words of Jesus. The burden of proof is on you. In the end, you are placing your faith in men.
I am not sure which ones you are talking about. But myths are sometime built on something that did happen. Like with Washington chopping down a cherry tree. He did have an axe as a toll when he was young and he did go about chopping things. Like with his wooden teeth that he was suppose to have eaten his supper with. But he did have trouble with his teeth and had false teeth. So it isn't as if people are just making up stories out of thin air.Myths about George Washington were invented while he was still alive.
The bible is written by humans and will have a human touch. That is why there maybe some differences about some detail because of the way it was seen from different points of view. But the basic story that they talk about is true according to the writers. It will all come down to whether you choose to believe it or not. There will never be 100% evidence but there can be some indirect evidence. The direct evidence mainly comes from witnesses which will be a matter of trust in what they say.I am bringing the Bible down to the human level because humans wrote it.
You have to test and assess what is said against life and how its practical application works and what results it produces. You have to use reason and logic and be honest with your self. Sometimes you can even use science to see if something causes certain consequences to find out if it is good or bad.
It has to conform with Gods laws and the teachings of Jesus.
I believe the laws of God are written on our hearts so the truth is in us.
But we have to be honest and look to see if we are trying to deny Gods truth or justify something that is truly not right.
No I am placing my faith in God through Jesus. If Jesus claims to be the Son of God then I am placing my faith in Him. The people of the bible are only repeating what Jesus said.
Well as I mentioned reasoning and logic are two thing you can use to assess and test out if someone view on morals makes sense and is actually a moral and not a crazy personal opinion about something. Like if Charlie Mason said I want you to go and kill that family because they are from the devil. As with the true life situation it was more to do with Masons madness and delusions about helter skelter. So you can easily decern what is justified and what is not by reason and logic.What are those tests?
I believe there has to be one independent set of morals that we have to go by. Otherwise its coming back to peoples personal views and we know they can be wrong even if they are in agreement. I realize a few religions claim to be the one. But I believe that morals are written on our conscience and they are what they are. It is probably better to say they belong to the universe of the quantum world perhaps. They are something that is just a part of us and our makeup just like the laws of physics. They are a part of Gods makeup and live in the spirit realm.Why? Out of all the religions, why does morality HAVE TO conform to yours? Don't other religions have a say? Or should any of them have a say?
I believe there is a truth that will stand up to anything. It is finding that truth. Its getting past the man made justifications, the rationalizations that try to make something good when its not. The excuses and all the other thinking that will disallow the truth. It is there we just have to find it.How do you determine if that belief results in proper morality?
Other religions can have morals as well. There are good values that people can have.Other religions believe different things. Are they immoral?
Well this can be something that people will differ on. I can say that say abortion is wrong and only acceptable under certain situations. I will use the truth of God in the bible about life. Now other people will have differing opinion s and use other methods to determine what is right and true. But normally that truth is for them and not independent of them. Like I said science maybe able to contribute a bit and reason and logic as well. But there maybe a part of my truth that I have to have faith in that may not be able to be backed by science or any source. It maybe that we differ on when life is life. Science may say that a certain stage of an embryo is not life. But they are making their judgement on a purely physical assessment. There maybe more to it than that. I believe that life starts from conception and that God even knew us before we were born.Other than just saying so, can you actually demonstrate that they are truths?
Jesus was more than a man.So says a man.
All you have is the word of men.
I believe there is a truth that will stand up to anything. It is finding that truth. Its getting past the man made justifications, the rationalizations that try to make something good when its not. The excuses and all the other thinking that will disallow the truth. It is there we just have to find it.
I obviously believe that God through Jesus is the tool that can tap into that truth as Christ emphasized that he was the truth.
Jesus was more than a man.
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