forgiveness - perpetual or do we need to constantly ask for it?

timlamb · May 12, 2009

ittarter;51636780]In an interpersonal relationship, doesn't each member have the freedom of termination?

What about killing the relationship through bitterness, jealousy, etc.? Isn't that possible too?

I think I addressed that: "However, if one of my children (God Forbid), should rebel against me, turn their back on my teaching and laws for the house, and begin hurting and leading astray my other children; if they are of age, they could be banned from my house for the sake of the sanctity of the house and the wellbeing of the other children. Only repentance would bring them back into good standing with me as a child of mine."

Is it really a relationship if it's only one-sided?

I don't think I spoke of a one sided relationship. I began by referring to my children. We are talking about losing salvation after it is gained. So we are talking about those who have already accepted God the Father, thus my analogy.

Generally, I think the familial relationship is a pretty good metaphor. But I still think that it opens up possibilities in the direction of the negative.

I think I addressed that too. "Personally, I think God gave us the family as an example to help understand Himself. Of course the system is broken like the rest of the world but here is what I see."

I like the metaphor too, but I have found it is not well recieved where broken homes have scarred the relationship. But still, I think the family was designed to teach us truth about our relationship with God.

Nadiine · May 12, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
I think this can be a bit much considering how many sins they are and how easy it is to mindlessly sin.

I dont see logic in stopping everytime i Sin to say, sorry God, please forgive me. I dont think we have to formally as for forgiveness all the time, but it is a helpful reminder that we do tend to do wrong against him, mindlessly or not.

I dont formally ask, but God knows me heart, he knows when im sorry.

That's like saying, "my child knows I love them, why say it?".

Alot of repentance is you verbalizing your own sin so that it
reminds YOU of your constant issue with that particular thing.
Alot of what God asks us to do isn't for God, but for us.
It makes us consciously aware of our spiritual status before
Him and alerts us to our issues and attitudes.

Nadiine · May 12, 2009

timlamb said:
I think I addressed that: "However, if one of my children (God Forbid), should rebel against me, turn their back on my teaching and laws for the house, and begin hurting and leading astray my other children; if they are of age, they could be banned from my house for the sake of the sanctity of the house and the wellbeing of the other children. Only repentance would bring them back into good standing with me as a child of mine."

I don't think I spoke of a one sided relationship. I began by referring to my children. We are talking about losing salvation after it is gained. So we are talking about those who have already accepted God the Father, thus my analogy.

I think I addressed that too. "Personally, I think God gave us the family as an example to help understand Himself. Of course the system is broken like the rest of the world but here is what I see."

I like the metaphor too, but I have found it is not well recieved where broken homes have scarred the relationship. But still, I think the family was designed to teach us truth about our relationship with God.

I agree - in fact in Exodus, (and another NT book... Hebrews I think),
it talks about what is in heaven is reflected on earth to show us
a picture of what is above.
With Exodus, the Temple they made was a replica of what was in
heaven...
Then we have the husband /wife example which is a replica of
Christ's relationship w/ His bride, ..

I consider them like oldschool teaching aides like a big flannelgraph
board w/ pictures for us to be able to relate. God is amazing in
how He teaches us.

Adoniram · May 12, 2009

When Christ died, he said "It is finished." He died once for all (1 Pet. 3:18; Rom. 6:10), his blood covering all of our sins, past, present, and future (Ps. 85:2). The Lord has forgiven us of all our sins (Col. 2:13-14).

Assuming we have become a member of God's family by trusting in Jesus, according to God's Word, the sins we commit today have already been forgiven. But...every sin effects our relationship with God...because it weighs on our conscience. We can't have the kind of relationship we should with God when we know we have sinned against Him, when we have that "hanging over our head." So, asking for forgiveness is a means of acknowledging to God that we know we have done wrong, and that we know we are still in need of His mercy. The lines of communication are opened again.

timlamb · May 12, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
I think this can be a bit much considering how many sins they are and how easy it is to mindlessly sin.

CS Lewis points out, and I believe rightly so, that you may do good without thinking but bad things always have thought behind them (Not a direct quote)

If you mean we mindlessly sin out of force of habit or something I agree, but the very nature of sin is that it is intentional and self serving.

Nadiine · May 12, 2009

Adoniram said:
When Christ died, he said "It is finished." He died once for all (1 Pet. 3:18; Rom. 6:10), his blood covering all of our sins, past, present, and future (Ps. 85:2). The Lord has forgiven us of all our sins (Col. 2:13-14).

Assuming we have become a member of God's family by trusting in Jesus, according to God's Word, the sins we commit today have already been forgiven. But...every sin effects our relationship with God...because it weighs on our conscience. We can't have the kind of relationship we should with God when we know we have sinned against Him, when we have that "hanging over our head." So, asking for forgiveness is a means of acknowledging to God that we know we have done wrong, and that we know we are still in need of His mercy. The lines of communication are opened again.

I think this has merit, becuz I know when I'm involved in any
known sin, that it hinders my prayer life significantly until I
finally fess up and be open with God about it -
I don't feel like I'm "slinking" to come & pray when I have a clearer
conscience.
It's almost like you clear up an argument w/ a friend so your
relationship is back again.
hard to explain.
But our pastor did touch on this subject in church 2 wks ago,
he said that sin doesn't separate us from God anymore in
a grace covenant.
I believe he's right, but we do need a close relationship =)

elephunky · May 14, 2009

Nadiine said:
That's like saying, "my child knows I love them, why say it?".

Alot of repentance is you verbalizing your own sin so that it
reminds YOU of your constant issue with that particular thing.
Alot of what God asks us to do isn't for God, but for us.
It makes us consciously aware of our spiritual status before
Him and alerts us to our issues and attitudes.

Love and forgiveness while connected, are very different.

And children cant read the hearts and mind of their parent

JCFantasy23 · May 14, 2009

I enjoy and feel right in asking for forgiveness of my sins every night before sleep.

chingchang · May 14, 2009

I think that unconfessed sin is a bigger problem than most people seem to realize. Whether you are damned for it is a complex issue.

My "point" is to dispute the idea that the Bible teaches that forgiveness is a one-time deal. I think that's only one part of the story. Are we clear so far?

As I have already said, you still need to address my claim that the Lord's Prayer provides an exemplary biblical text in which forgiveness is an ongoing activity.

This is certainly debatable...as is almost all Christian doctrine. There are two sides of this debate. I believe in "once saved always saved." Anything less would seem to limit the power of God to redeem the lost...IMHO. The only exception would seem to be those that do not forgive others...God will not forgive...but that doesn't have anything to do with unconfessed sin. In addition...the "Lord's Prayer" is the focus of a significant amount of Biblical textual criticism. In the KJV, Matthew says 'debts' while Luke says 'sins'? Which is it? Furthermore...there is ample evidence that this prayer has been added to (by scribes) and orginally was more simplistic. If you want to know more about that...search for it. But...to cut-to-the-chase...here is why I believe that I don't need to "confess my sins"...

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24, among others.

What if I died in a car wreck and hadn't asked for forgiveness for some sin I committed earlier that day? I know the answer to this question and I feel saddness for the believers that don't have the security that I know.

Hugs,
CC

ittarter · May 14, 2009

timlamb said:
I think I addressed that...

You are right, you certainly addressed all those points. However, I wanted to re-examine them because I didn't see how they led to your conclusion:

the answer is, no, you do not lose your salvation with unrepentant sin, because the relationship IS a constant state of love, forgiveness, and repentance.

Click to expand...

So, continuing to use the familial metaphor, if the relationship may be closed and only reopened by repentance, it would stand to reason that the benefits of that relationship are also lost for the time being.

Yes, they are always available to be reattained. Are they always lost with unrepentant sin? I doubt it -- but sometimes those sins directly shut down communication with the other party. Those are the ones that, I suggest,
would indirectly cause the lose of that eschatological salvation promised to "persistent" believers.

Click to expand...

timlamb · May 15, 2009

ittarter said:
timlamb said:

I think I addressed that...

You are right, you certainly addressed all those points. However, I wanted to re-examine them because I didn't see how they led to your conclusion:

So, continuing to use the familial metaphor, if the relationship may be closed and only reopened by repentance, it would stand to reason that the benefits of that relationship are also lost for the time being.

Yes, they are always available to be reattained. Are they always lost with unrepentant sin? I doubt it -- but sometimes those sins directly shut down communication with the other party. Those are the ones that, I suggest,
would indirectly cause the lose of that eschatological salvation promised to "persistent" believers.

Click to expand...

I think I agree with what you say, just how badly the relationship is severed is the question.

It's odd that their is such confusion and dissagreement on this. I doubt salvation is as vague or ambiguous in God's eyes. I think God makes the terms of a relationship with Himself pretty clear, and if we want that we have it, if we don't we are lost. It is a matter of the heart so only God can judge.

Click to expand...

ittarter · May 15, 2009

timlamb said:
It's odd that their is such confusion and disagreement on this. I doubt salvation is as vague or ambiguous in God's eyes. I think God makes the terms of a relationship with Himself pretty clear, and if we want that we have it, if we don't we are lost. It is a matter of the heart so only God can judge.

I agree. People bring certain categories to the table and try and use them to address a question that could be answered very simply in other terms.

Often, the original rationale for the question has disappeared, and what remains is an obsolete set of parameters that poorly defines the issue at hand. Since the time the question was originally asked, we have developed tools that are more appropriate for the task. We simply choose not to use them

forgiveness - perpetual or do we need to constantly ask for it?

timlamb

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Nadiine

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Adoniram

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