forgiveness - perpetual or do we need to constantly ask for it?

rahulpatel1985 · May 9, 2009

Hi guys.. i just wanted to ask for your views. What do u think about forgiveness. 'cos i think worrying about whether or not one has sinned is a big problem for some people.

Does Christ's sacrifice automatically remove our sin from us? Or do we have to ask for forgiveness and mercy everytime we sin.

But i think there are arguments for both sides. a really helpful article is here: godandscience.org/doctrine/confession.html

Please tell me what you guys think about this matter!

Kaylin · May 9, 2009

I think that God forgives us and makes us clean when we accept Jesus, but when we sin after we've accepted Him, we still have to ask for forgiveness. God will forgive us as soon as we ask if we're honestly asking for forgiveness, of course, but just because we've accepted Jesus doesn't mean we get a free pass to do what we want.

I guess a decent metaphor would be this: Before we accept Jesus, we're wearing robes that are really dirty, covered in grime and dust and muck and every other sort of dirt you can think of. No matter how hard we try, we can't scrub anything off - it sticks. When we accept Jesus, Jesus gives us a brand new pure white robe. We can still get things on it, but Jesus will always wash it for us and keep it clean.

Does that make sense?

Ave Maria · May 9, 2009

You have to ask for forgiveness of your sins every time you sin.

chingchang · May 9, 2009

Says who? AND...what if I "sin" then die in a car wreck before I get a chance to ask forgiveness?????????

TIA and Hugs,
CC

rahulpatel1985 · May 9, 2009

i tend to agree with Ching Chang. Romans 3:20-24 is interesting in this aspect. I have been soliciting views and it just seems that it would be impossible for one to have asked for forgiveness for every sin in one's time here on earth.

Catholic doctrine is different, i understand on this topic. but other than that, wouldnt u say, that having to seek forgiveness for every sin would become an overly-legalistic, tiresome endeavour that takes away focus from the important parts of Christian life?

rahulpatel1985 · May 9, 2009

oh and kaylin, this position that im putting forward is not to suggest that somehow we can sin whenever we want to once we have accepted Christ. definitely not. I'm not suggesting it's a free pass haha.

Nadiine · May 9, 2009

We're supposed to view Christ as our "groom" - and the Father
is supposed to be like a parent/child relationship; we're His
children.

If we think about our own relationships btwn one another, do we
say we're sorry when we hurt our real dad or mom? Our spouses?

If we say we're sorry to them, there's no reason to think that
once we get saved, we don't have to say we're sorry and try
not to hurt or grieve our Lord.
I think alot of this may stem from the type of relationships we
carry with Him.
If we're distant and lukewarm, we really won't feel much need
or remorse for our sin and we'll probly be living in a state of
disobedience in some areas....

Anyways, yes we continue repenting, repenting involves
turning away from those actions - lack of repenting would mean
we're not remorseful enough to want to stop most likely.

chingchang · May 9, 2009

rahulpatel1985 said:
having to seek forgiveness for every sin would become an overly-legalistic, tiresome endeavour that takes away focus from the important parts of Christian life?

Yup. The Israelites had to atone for every sin they committed. It was a continual thing. Yeshua came and did away with that system. ALL of our sins are atoned for now. We don't have to continually ask for forgiveness. That actually destroys the good work of Yeshua on the cross! It is finished! I'll add this...if we have to ask forgiveness each and everytime we sin in order to get into Heaven...then don't you think Yeshua would have taught that and made it VERY clear to us? Guess what? Yup. Instead...his two greatest commands (according to his words) were to "...love God..." and "...love your neighbor as yourself...". Then...later...the Apostle Paul and James summed that up into "love your neighbor as yourself"...James even called it "the ROYAL law". That is the law we're held accountable to now...and we don't have to ask forgiveness everytime we fail.

To the proponents of "ask forgiveness everytime you sin in order to remain in God's good grace"...I'd ask the following:

1. Is it a sin to not ask forgiveness if you sin?
2. If so, can you lose salvation over that mistake?
3. Can you support your view with NT scripture, please?

Sorry...I don't mean to hijack the thread...

Free Hugs,
CC

Nadiine · May 9, 2009

An aside, Christ died for our sins past, present & future;
He didn't miss any that we'd do.
IF we are genuinely born again we have forgiveness and it's
our works that will be judged in the end.
For reward or not.

And it's a genuine born again Christian that won't trample on
the Grace of God who forgave those sins to continue in them
without remorse/repentance.

chingchang · May 9, 2009

Nadiine said:
We're supposed to view Christ as our "groom" - and the Father
is supposed to be like a parent/child relationship; we're His
children.

If we think about our own relationships btwn one another, do we
say we're sorry when we hurt our real dad or mom? Our spouses?

If we say we're sorry to them, there's no reason to think that
once we get saved, we don't have to say we're sorry and try
not to hurt or grieve our Lord.
I think alot of this may stem from the type of relationships we
carry with Him.
If we're distant and lukewarm, we really won't feel much need
or remorse for our sin and we'll probly be living in a state of
disobedience in some areas....

Anyways, yes we continue repenting, repenting involves
turning away from those actions - lack of repenting would mean
we're not remorseful enough to want to stop most likely.

I agree with you Nadiine...but what if we don't ask forgiveness? I agree that right attitude is what you've described above...but our salvation doesn't hang on following that as a rule. I'm not saying "don't ask forgiveness"...I'm saying "don't ask forgiveness because you think you have to...you don't". If the saved are asking forgiveness because they think they have to or they won't get into Heaven...then they are receiving false teaching and spiritual growth can not take place in a legalistic system like that. It is like Islam...you just follow the rules...

Hugs Sister,
CC

Nadiine · May 9, 2009

chingchang said:
I agree with you Nadiine...but what if we don't ask forgiveness? I agree that right attitude is what you've described above...but our salvation doesn't hang on following that as a rule. I'm not saying "don't ask forgiveness"...I'm saying "don't ask forgiveness because you think you have to...you don't". If the saved are asking forgiveness because they think they have to or they won't get into Heaven...then they are receiving false teaching and spiritual growth can not take place in a legalistic system like that. It is like Islam...you just follow the rules...

Hugs Sister,
CC

Well as I said, a genuine believer IS forgiven by Christ's work on
the cross: past, present & future.

And repenting is often not understood either - it isn't just a simple,
"gee I'm sorry". Repenting involves the mindset to turn away in
another direction and stop something you were doing.
There's supposed to be remorse involved.
If we sin and don't repent, then it would actually mean that we
have no intention on stopping that sin and plan to willfully
continue and not feel bad about it.

(that's more a fruit of a nonChristian).

& What I see getting lost in these types of questions is the relational
equasion for the superficial issue.
God isn't just "GOD up there in the big sky"... He's supposed to be the ultimate love of our life.
What do we do with a loved one when we screw up & hurt them?
Do the opposite of what they ask of us? Do we give a flip?
If we do, then we say we're sorry and determine not to do it
again.

A born again Christian will continue to repent as they go along.
Repenting is a very important aspect of worship & relationship.

Again, alot of this issue and how we feel will heavily depend on
our personal relationship with God and I don't care to focus on
that here. It's just side input.

2ndRateMind · May 9, 2009

I think I more or less agree with everyone. I think God's forgiveness is pretty much automatic, whatever the sin, whatever the crime. What isn't automatic is our part of the deal, which is to rebuild our relationship with perfect goodness. To do that, we must a) recognise our sin, b) be sorry about it, and c) mend our ways. Asking for forgiveness is just a stage on the way, signifying that we have done a and b and are ready to do c.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

rahulpatel1985 · May 9, 2009

Ching Chang, u did not hijack the thread haha. u have given me valuable insights and i thank u for them. they have helped alot!

Nadiine, i think we have to differentiate repentance from confession/asking for forgiveness. repentance is a state of mind that will occur in a contrite Christian's heart immediately after sin and is thus a passive process of acceptance of one's sin and then the resolve to behave differently. Confession/asking for forgiveness is on the other hand an active process.
im not suggesting that one should not feel remorse for the sin!!

Much love from your brother in Christ,
Rahul

rahulpatel1985 · May 9, 2009

Oooh Nadiine, i just saw ure latest post. and yeah. i think we're in agreement!

ittarter · May 9, 2009

chingchang said:
Yup. The Israelites had to atone for every sin they committed. It was a continual thing. Yeshua came and did away with that system. ALL of our sins are atoned for now. We don't have to continually ask for forgiveness. That actually destroys the good work of Yeshua on the cross! It is finished! I'll add this...if we have to ask forgiveness each and everytime we sin in order to get into Heaven...then don't you think Yeshua would have taught that and made it VERY clear to us? Guess what? Yup. Instead...his two greatest commands (according to his words) were to "...love God..." and "...love your neighbor as yourself...". Then...later...the Apostle Paul and James summed that up into "love your neighbor as yourself"...James even called it "the ROYAL law". That is the law we're held accountable to now...and we don't have to ask forgiveness everytime we fail.

To the proponents of "ask forgiveness everytime you sin in order to remain in God's good grace"...I'd ask the following:

1. Is it a sin to not ask forgiveness if you sin?
2. If so, can you lose salvation over that mistake?
3. Can you support your view with NT scripture, please?

Sorry...I don't mean to hijack the thread...

Free Hugs,
CC

Funny. If it was so clear, then why did the earliest generations of Christians postpone their baptism until as late in life as possible, so that it would cover as many sins as possible?

In answer to your questions:
1. Not necessarily. I guess it would depend on the reason (e.g. recalcitrance).
2. Same answer as above.
3. The Paternoster is an obvious example of ongoing forgiveness. "Forgive us our sins" -- AND it is not based on Christ's merit, but rather "as we forgive those who sinned against us." (I am paraphrasing, of course)
Another one often referred to is the one at the end of James, "Confess your sins to one another," although obviously that's not confession to God, so I don't think it's necessarily relevant to this conversation.

chingchang · May 9, 2009

ittarter said:
Funny. If it was so clear, then why did the earliest generations of Christians postpone their baptism until as late in life as possible, so that it would cover as many sins as possible?

In answer to your questions:
1. Not necessarily. I guess it would depend on the reason (e.g. recalcitrance).
2. Same answer as above.
3. The Paternoster is an obvious example of ongoing forgiveness. "Forgive us our sins" -- AND it is not based on Christ's merit, but rather "as we forgive those who sinned against us." (I am paraphrasing, of course)
Another one often referred to is the one at the end of James, "Confess your sins to one another," although obviously that's not confession to God, so I don't think it's necessarily relevant to this conversation.

What is your point? What "earlierest generations of Christians" are you talking about? Years...and possibly a link por favor? Oh, and from your answer to question 2...I guess you think it is possible to lose one's salvation because unconfessed sin is present in one's life?

Hugs,
CC

ittarter · May 10, 2009

chingchang said:
What is your point? What "earliest generations of Christians" are you talking about? Years...and possibly a link por favor?

Look up the history of baptism in any text. It is a basic, undisputed, historical fact. I cite Wikipedia only because I'm too lazy to find a reputable online source:
Baptism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, and from your answer to question 2...I guess you think it is possible to lose one's salvation because unconfessed sin is present in one's life?

I think that unconfessed sin is a bigger problem than most people seem to realize. Whether you are damned for it is a complex issue.

My "point" is to dispute the idea that the Bible teaches that forgiveness is a one-time deal. I think that's only one part of the story. Are we clear so far?

As I have already said, you still need to address my claim that the Lord's Prayer provides an exemplary biblical text in which forgiveness is an ongoing activity.

timlamb · May 11, 2009

Personally, I think God gave us the family as an example to help understand Himself. Of course the system is broken like the rest of the world but here is what I see.

If I am walking in relationship with my God, the way my children walk in relationship with me, then I know my salvation is safe. Because if my children do something wrong, they are not cut off from inheritance nor locked out of the house. The still eat at my tabel and depend on my love. But, because they love and respect me they will come and appologise if I am angry. We will talk and mending and correction will happen but they never lose their position as my children. However, if one of my children (God Forbid), should rebel against me, turn their back on my teaching and laws for the house, and begin hurting and leading astray my other children; if they are of age, they could be banned from my house for the sake of the sanctity of the house and the wellbeing of the other children. Only repentance would bring them back into good standing with me as a child of mine.

In other words, if you are in a relationship with your God and Savior, your forgiveness is assured, and you repent and appologize out of love. If that love is not there, you are not in relationship. Forgiveness comes to those who believe IN the Lord. When you believe IN Him sin does not break that relationship.

I keep re-explaining because I don't think I explained it well. but the answer is, no, you do not lose your salvation with unrepentant sin, because the relationship IS a constant state of love, forgiveness, and repentance.

ittarter · May 11, 2009

timlamb said:
the answer is, no, you do not lose your salvation with unrepentant sin, because the relationship IS a constant state of love, forgiveness, and repentance.

In an interpersonal relationship, doesn't each member have the freedom of termination?

What about killing the relationship through bitterness, jealousy, etc.? Isn't that possible too?

Is it really a relationship if it's only one-sided?

Generally, I think the familial relationship is a pretty good metaphor. But I still think that it opens up possibilities in the direction of the negative.

elephunky · May 11, 2009

PaladinGirl said:
You have to ask for forgiveness of your sins every time you sin.

I think this can be a bit much considering how many sins they are and how easy it is to mindlessly sin.

I dont see logic in stopping everytime i Sin to say, sorry God, please forgive me. I dont think we have to formally as for forgiveness all the time, but it is a helpful reminder that we do tend to do wrong against him, mindlessly or not.

I dont formally ask, but God knows me heart, he knows when im sorry.

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