Focus

karen freeinchristman · Jul 1, 2008

I've been increasingly convicted that the Church has been spending too much time focusing on the wrong things. Though those 'things' do need to be sorted, we need to keep reminding ourselves of the scope of the work we are called to do.

From this article in Christianity Today:

The Archbishop of Canterburys Secretary for International Development, David Peck said, It takes responsibility for doing the right things and it takes responsibility for doing the wrong things and our contribution has wonderfully been right and sadly been wrong. So what we need to focus on is the repentance for what we get wrong and the energising and focussing in building what we get right.
He continued, You cannot read the Bible and think that 33 million people around the world who are HIV positive, and how many tens of millions more are impacted by the weight of that illness, and the vulnerability that HIV creates, and think it doesnt involve Jesus and it doesnt involve me.

Just felt I had to post this. Not for debate, just for the principle of it.

karen freeinchristman · Jul 2, 2008

"The average Anglican is a black woman under the age of 30, who earns two dollars a day, has a family of at least three children, has lost two close relatives to AIDs, and who will walk four miles to Church for a three hour service on a Sunday."

- from here.

JasonV · Jul 2, 2008

From this I'd venture that the communion is out of focus with the real problems and needs of the Church.

karen freeinchristman · Jul 2, 2008

JasonV said:
From this I'd venture that the communion is out of focus with the real problems and needs of the Church.

Ding ding!!! Jason wins a prize!

Phinehas2 · Jul 3, 2008

Jesus wasnt crucified for His good works of healing, reaching the marginalised etc, He was crucified for what He said and who He was despite His good works.
The churches I know that are increasingly called 'fundamental' or 'conservative' have never stopped their focus and efforts on mission. When challenging false teaching and sinful living they have never taken thier eyes and efforts away from mission.

karen freeinchristman · Jul 3, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Jesus wasnt crucified for His good works of healing, reaching the marginalised etc, He was crucified for what He said and who He was despite His good works.
The churches I know that are increasingly called 'fundamental' or 'conservative' have never stopped their focus and efforts on mission. When challenging false teaching and sinful living they have never taken thier eyes and efforts away from mission.

Yes, he was crucified for what he said - and quite a lot of what he said was in condemnation of those who oppress the marginalised and lift up the self-righteous.

I agree with you that those churches which are conservative also do pay attention to mission and caring for the poor. But the passion being demonstrated currently in the Anglican church (and on this forum) for the homosexuality issue is way higher than the passion we see focussed on the issues of poverty and oppression, in my view. Why is it that we are so deeply offended by homosexuality and not so deeply affected by all of the injustice and poverty (both material and spiritual) in the world?

IowaLutheran · Jul 3, 2008

Your post reminds me of an interesting blog entry by an Anglican blogger - here's an excerpt:

"I’m sorry, but I really don’t think this is about “inclusion” or about the “authority of Scripture”, or even about the “faith once delivered”. Some in the pews may see it that way, but at the end of the day the sense that I get is that this is about whose clique calls the shots. I see it as a power game, pure and simple. And that’s what makes me most angry. I see two groups at the highest levels in a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ing contest that has pulled in the entire Anglican world. We’re burning through literally millions of dollars in big international gatherings and conferences and lawsuits while we stand on the brink of something much bigger and much more dangerous. America is heading into a recession. Of that I have no doubt. And, if the peak oil people are right—and I’m becoming more and more persuaded that they are—than it will be longer, harder, and deeper than anything we’ve seen in a very long time. There are going to be a lot of people who will need help: covering rent, covering bills, families who have lost jobs, houses, and hope. How much do our squabbles and litigations cost when measured out in bags of flour and gallons of milk?"

http://haligweorc.wordpress.com/

Scroll down to the 7-1-08 post "Shrewd as serpents"

DominusIesus · Jul 3, 2008

karen freeinchristman said:
the passion being demonstrated currently in the Anglican church (and on this forum) for the homosexuality issue is way higher than the passion we see focussed on the issues of poverty and oppression, in my view

Social justice is indeed important but so is living a holy life. I would point out that I would dearly love to spend all my hours calling upon people to help the poor, but when people start saying that a sinful life style is not actually sinful then we need to respond. If those who championed homosexuality within the Church repent of their errors then we can all go and help the poor.

ebia · Jul 3, 2008

DominusIesus said:
Social justice is indeed important but so is living a holy life. I would point out that I would dearly love to spend all my hours calling upon people to help the poor, but when people start saying that a sinful life style is not actually sinful then we need to respond.

Respond yes, but give it our complete and undivided attention until it is completely sorted? Yes, individual and corporate holiness is important, but not to the point where, at our highest levels, it can be allowed to override all else.

If those who championed homosexuality within the Church repent of their errors then we can all go and help the poor.

And in the mean time? If the rest of God's commission to the church has to wait until everyone (or even anyone) has identified and repented of all their sins nothing else will ever happen.

The problem isn't that the subject is being addressed, the problem lies in the way it's being done and the all-consuming attention it's getting.

ebia · Jul 3, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Jesus wasnt crucified for His good works of healing, reaching the marginalised etc,

On the contrary, his "good works" of healing, reaching the marginalised, and forgiving were exactly the things that undermined the power of those in control of the Temple and spoke most powerful against them.

The churches I know that are increasingly called 'fundamental' or 'conservative' have never stopped their focus and efforts on mission. When challenging false teaching and sinful living they have never taken thier eyes and efforts away from mission.

At the local level many (most?) churches of all persuasions are carrying on with the business of mission. The problem lies in how certain issues have tied up the leadership, the global and national churches, and become the world's view of what is important in the Anglican church.

DominusIesus · Jul 4, 2008

ebia said:
Respond yes, but give it our complete and undivided attention until it is completely sorted?

We should pay attention to both, and both are being looked at and acted upon but of course what sells more newspapers "Church helps the poor!" or "Church to split over homosexual issue"?

Bishop Wright noted that "GAFCON was a great celebration of the gospel of the love and transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The church needs this energy and vision." He himself actively seeks a (conservative) solution to the homosexual issue as well as champions the cancelling of third world debt.

Both issues are being dealt with, the Liberals however attempt to paint conservatives as those who would rather fight over homosexuality than help the poor. It is a biased, inaccurate and polemical tactic with no truth or substance behind it.

Phinehas2 · Jul 4, 2008

Dear Karenfreeinchristman,

Yes, he was crucified for what he said - and quite a lot of what he said was in condemnation of those who oppress the marginalised and lift up the self-righteous.

Yes that’s right and the marginalised listened to Him when He explained women were created for men. Your comment would be well taken on board by the liberals who like the religious leaders of His day, argued with Jesus.

I agree with you that those churches which are conservative also do pay attention to mission and caring for the poor. But the passion being demonstrated currently in the Anglican church (and on this forum) for the homosexuality issue is way higher than the passion we see focussed on the issues of poverty and oppression, in my view. Why is it that we are so deeply offended by homosexuality and not so deeply affected by all of the injustice and poverty (both material and spiritual) in the world?

Well that’s the fault of the liberals then.
The living word of God that makes us passionate for helping the poor, also makes us passionate for seeking to live lives that honour God.

Phinehas2 · Jul 4, 2008

Dear ebia,
I fully agree with DominusIesus, if the liberals dont like distraction from the mission they can repent.

On the contrary, his "good works" of healing, reaching the marginalised, and forgiving were exactly the things that undermined the power of those in control of the

Temple and spoke most powerful against them.

Yes I agree but those in control of the Temple disagreed with Jesus teaching much like the liberals do, and incidentally not all who Jesus reached were the marginal, He reached centurions and Pharisees as well.

The problem lies in how certain issues have tied up the leadership, the global and national churches, and become the world's view of what is important in the Anglican church.

Yes I agree, disgraceful isnt it.

Phinehas2 · Jul 4, 2008

Dear DominusIesus,
I agree with you and the Bishop Wright, GAFCON has been a good testimony, a "great celebration of the gospel of the love and transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ"
Praise God

longhair75 · Jul 4, 2008

My friend ebia makes a great point here:

At the local level many (most?) churches of all persuasions are carrying on with the business of mission. The problem lies in how certain issues have tied up the leadership, the global and national churches, and become the world's view of what is important in the Anglican church.

The issues that every one here seems to argue incessantly are never brought up at the Episcopal Church I attend. We are way to busy with Worship, Fellowship and Community outreach to worry about who is sleeping with whom in London or New Hampshire.

longhair75 · Jul 4, 2008

I hit send way too early, sorry.

Another fine point made by friend ebia:

And in the mean time? If the rest of God's commission to the church has to wait until everyone (or even anyone) has identified and repented of all their sins nothing else will ever happen.

The problem isn't that the subject is being addressed, the problem lies in the way it's being done and the all-consuming attention it's getting.

Phinehas2 · Jul 4, 2008

Dear Longhair,

We are way to busy with Worship, Fellowship and Community outreach to worry about who is sleeping with whom in London or New Hampshire

So you will all be happy and not worried that there are to be no same-sex unions among believers? We should pay attention to both if we are in a Communion fellowship.

Phinehas2 · Jul 4, 2008

This an excellent point from DominusIesus,

We should pay attention to both, and both are being looked at and acted upon but of course what sells more newspapers "Church helps the poor!" or "Church to split over homosexual issue"?

This is not surprising, in just the same way His works were not as important when they crucified Jesus for what He taught and said.
The media could keep busy for ages wth all the community charity work the church does but I turned on the secular radio just twice yesterday, and one of the articles was an interview with the actor Sir Ian Mckellan (he of ripping pages from the Bible fame) and the launch of a film about gay children in families called for the Bible tells me so, which Gene Robinson is going to attend with him. I heard Sir Ian McKellan make the same false allegations that the GAFCON people dont like gay people. And of interest was the apparent idea of the atheist Sir Ian McKellan reading out Gene Robinson's sermon from the pulpit with Gene Robinson standing behind; this is not going to happen because Gene Robinson thought it would be too provocative.
I note the atheists and the liberals think the same on this issue.

DominusIesus · Jul 4, 2008

longhair75 said:
We are way to busy with Worship, Fellowship and Community outreach to worry about who is sleeping with whom in London or New Hampshire.

Let's be honest though, you are not exactly in the conservative camp though are you? The Church is to rebuke sin wherever it is found. Ministers of the gospel are to be of good behaviour, blameless, further he must have a good report of them which are outside of the Church. They must hold fast the faithful word as they hath been taught. Those who are not sound in the faith are to be rebuked.

The Form of Ordination of a Bishop and Priest includes the following:

Are you ready, with all faithful diligence, to banish and drive away from the Church all erroneous and strange doctrine contrary to God's Word; and both privately and openly to call upon and encourage others to the same?
Answer. I am ready, the Lord being my helper.

WILL you deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; that you may show yourself in all things an example of good works unto others, that the adversary may be ashamed, having nothing to say against you?
Answer. I will so do, the Lord being my helper.

WILL you maintain and set forward, as much as shall lie in you, quietness, love, and peace among all men; and such as be unquiet, disobedient, and criminous, within your Diocese, correct and punish, according to such authority as you have by God's Word, and as to you shall be committed by the Ordinance of this Realm?
Answer. I will so do, by the help of God.

When bishops and priests fail to do that then one has to ask why. Those who have been ordained and say that homosexuality is fine should be removed from office. It is about discipline as per Article 26

Nevertheless it appertaineth to the discipline of the Church that inquiry be made of evil ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty by just judgement, be deposed.

Yes I want to help the poor, both physically and spiritually but a Church that turns its back upon the revealed will of God can do neither well.

karen freeinchristman · Jul 4, 2008

DominusIesus said:
of course what sells more newspapers "Church helps the poor!" or "Church to split over homosexual issue"?

I agree with you on this, most definitely - the media are to be condemned for reporting only the sensational items and not the routine and committed work done by the Church in helping the poor and disadvantaged. This does disgust me and it gives the world the wrong impression.

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