Flood Conundrum

Fascinated With God · Feb 18, 2013

SkyWriting said:
Please provide your sources on this revelation.

The increase in IQ since the 1800's is well established and is not a revelation: Flynn effect - Wikipedia.

As to the recent genetic evidence of a decline in IQ over the past 10,000 years of traditional societies rather than primative societies, I heard it recently on Science Friday on NPR, before an extended interveiw with James Watson. Here is the podcast: The Double Helix and Beyond: Catching Up With James Watson

Unfortunately the geneticist describing the decline was talking via phone and got cut off, so I was not able to get any of the details.

Fascinated With God · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
Nay, the scientists need to sit in the pew and be very quite and listen for a period of time.

You should consider attending another denomination. I have never heard any pastor or priest express YEC ideas at any of the churches I have attended over the past 35 years.

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Calminian · Feb 18, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
As much as we have of the Masoretic text being based on an ancient manuscript's original writing, because we do not have any ancient manuscripts of the Torah, the prophets, or the writings, but in 1948 [?], the DSS were discovered in the Qumran caves, and we found that at least the Masoretic Isaiah is reliable based on the Greater Isaiah manuscript scorll there. Otherwise, we have "zilch" ancient texts; only copies of copies of copies.
So we compare the evidence within Jasher with what we have in the Tenach and NT, and we see a total corroboration of Jasher with those -and many things are brought to light by it that are not repeated in the Tenach, because "behold! is it ... written in Jasher!"

Well there's another Jasher that also claims to be the book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible. This also was translated in the 19th century, and also claims to be based on an ancient document. What about that one?

Now, I do believe it's very possible that Jasher (the 1840 one) is based on an ancient history book. I even believe it may be based on the book mentioned in the Bible (the Upright Book). But are you going so far as to call TBOJ inspired? Or do you just look at it as non-inspired history?

For there are differences between Jasher and Genesis. For instance, Jashar has Abram's birth 70 years after Terah's birth. The Bible, through Gen. 12:4 and Stephens inspired testimony tells us for certain Abram was born 130 years after Terah's birth. Now getting that birth date confused is very easy for many bible readers, but the Holy Spirit would never make that mistake.

Now that's a real contradiction. Now it's not a big deal to me as I would expect discrepancies like this in non-inspired yet reliable historical documents. I believe Josephus got a lot of things wrong as well. But if you think Jasher is the word of God, you have a problem. You've got to now choose between the Bible and Jasher on this one issue.

I also think it's wrong to think Jasher was inspired merely because it is mentioned and quoted in scripture. That's never a criterion for canonization. The Bible quotes many people. It's not an endorsement of their entire works.

And I'm still not sure Jashar is based on an earlier ancient document, but am hoping to find some verification, beit manuscripts or even some internal evidence. But the Dead Sea Scrolls actually don't include Jasher and that right there seems to be proof it was never an actual part of the canon. For the DSS actually coveres the time period Jasher covers.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
Well there's another Jasher that also claims to be the book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible. This also was translated in the 19th century, and also claims to be based on an ancient document. What about that one?

Now, I do believe it's very possible that Jasher (the 1840 one) is based on an ancient history book. I even believe it may be based on the book mentioned in the Bible (the Upright Book). But are you going so far as to call TBOJ inspired? Or do you just look at it as non-inspired history?

For there are differences between Jasher and Genesis. For instance, Jashar has Abram's birth 70 years after Terah's birth. The Bible, through Gen. 12:4 and Stephens inspired testimony tells us for certain Abram was born 130 years after Terah's birth. Now getting that birth date confused is very easy for many bible readers, but the Holy Spirit would never make that mistake.

Now that's a real contradiction. Now it's not a big deal to me as I would expect discrepancies like this in non-inspired yet reliable historical documents. I believe Josephus got a lot of things wrong as well. But if you think Jasher is the word of God, you have a problem. You've got to now choose between the Bible and Jasher on this one issue.

I think we had this conversation before....
I believe the Book of Jasher is True history, as much as Joshua, Judges, the Samuels, the Kings, the Chronicles, Ruth, Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra -all the Ezra's- and the Maccabees and Acts of the Apostles and whatever else is written as history of the Patriarchs is.
There is no other true history book of Jasher that is corroborated by the Tenach to Revelation accounts than the one linked above.

I believe it is a true record, and that is one translation of its name in Hebrew " The Upright Record".
It stops where Deuteronomy stops, and after that, the histories continue to be written and we call them "Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings Ezra, Ruth"... and so on and so forth.

As to "inspired" that is what God breathed through His prophets. The Jews do not call the histories
"inspired". They are true records and can be trusted as true.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
For there are differences between Jasher and Genesis. For instance, Jashar has Abram's birth 70 years after Terah's birth. The Bible, through Gen. 12:4 and Stephens inspired testimony tells us for certain Abram was born 130 years after Terah's birth. Now getting that birth date confused is very easy for many bible readers, but the Holy Spirit would never make that mistake.

Now that's a real contradiction. Now it's not a big deal to me as I would expect discrepancies like this in non-inspired yet reliable historical documents. I believe Josephus got a lot of things wrong as well. But if you think Jasher is the word of God, you have a problem. You've got to now choose between the Bible and Jasher on this one issue.

There is no contradiction in Jasher and Genesis, only clarity is given by the Jasher record.
Steven was not correct on his times, because he had lost Jasher -though Paul had it, being a scholar, himself. Steven had the Isrealites in Egypt 400 years and Moses 40 years old when he fled Egypt, but in fact, Moses was 18 when he fled, and ruled Cush/Sudan for many years, and married the queen of Cush [wrongly translated Ethiopian, in the KJV] when her husband died, as a politically expedient thing to do. He married Zephorah when he was 79, and two years later, when he left for Egypt, he had two small sons, one of whom was not circumcised because he heeded his father in law in not doing so....and the rest is written in Jasher

If you follow the Genesis account painstakingly, then you discover that Israel was in Egypt for 215 years [says Usher], but in Jasher, it plainly tells you they were in Egypt 210 years, so there is error in those who try to make it 400 years, esp when the Torah tells us that Moses is the grandson of Levi, being the son of Levi's daughter.
Exd 6:20
And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram [were] an hundred and thirty and seven years.
So in Jasher we read that Jochebed was born at the gate of Egypt, to Levi when they went in [Jewish history also states] and was 127 when Jochedbed took her [back] Israel left Egypt when Moses was 82. Moses was a 7 month baby, also.

You just cannot get 400 years of slavery out of the Torah, and also, before Joseph died, Israel was in grand favor in Egypt. Not until after Joseph died did things begin to go bad for Israel, and Miriam was born after it did so, and was named bitter/Mira -Am because of the bitterness they were suffering under the next ruler and his nation -the people "Am".

Calminian · Feb 18, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
There is no contradiction in Jasher and Genesis, only clarity is given by the Jasher record.
Steven was not correct on his times, because he had lost Jasher -though Paul had it, being a scholar, himself.

Yeah I had a feeling you'd throw out N.T. inerrancy before admitting Jasher is errant. Seems you put more into personal revelations you receive than just trusting scripture.

Stephen was right on the money. You see Genesis tells us that Abram left Haran after his father's death and was 75 years old. Terah was 205 when he died, therefore he was 130 when Abram was born.

BTW Terah's genealogy where he mentions his 3 sons is almost identical in construction to Noah's genealogy where he mentions he 3 sons at age 500. This didn't mean all 3 sons were born at 500, just the first of them. We then learn that Shem was born when Noah was 502. The same thing happens in Terah's genealogy. We know Haran was the oldest born when Terah was 70, and Abram was born 60 years later.

Stephen merely confirmed the story that was in Genesis by explaining that Abram left Terah after his death when he was 75. And according to Josephus, Stephen would have had access to Jasher. The Book of Jasher was known to Josephus and was known to be among the books laid up in the Temple in the first century.

But this is the danger of simply trusting that every ancient document is inspired. You then are forced to choose between extra-biblical books and the Bible itself.

Now the Bereans were much smarter than this. They tested teachings by scripture. They would have told you flat out that you choose the Genesis and the books of Moses over Jasher. You've ceased to do that.

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
This may explain why cave paintings of later generations after Nimrod and other early mighty hunters didn't depict dinosaurs.

There is an astonishingly high number of depictions of dinosaurs, some of which are more accurate than science came up with until recently. South America is especially rich with these. Also, pterodactyls have been seen in the last 100 years, by multiple credible persons in remote locations.

Here, we have birds called pterodactyls but really they're just sandhill cranes. Still considered dinosaurs ...

Jig · Feb 18, 2013

BluhdoftheLamb said:
There is an astonishingly high number of depictions of dinosaurs, some of which are more accurate than science came up with until recently. South America is especially rich with these. Also, pterodactyls have been seen in the last 100 years, by multiple credible persons in remote locations.

Here, we have birds called pterodactyls but really they're just sandhill cranes. Still considered dinosaurs ...

Dragon mythology is indeed quite interesting. In some sense, I agree that some of these stories are rooted in actual history. This all reminds me of the dilemma of living fossils.

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
Even apart from Ussher's calculations, all biblical chronologies would lead to a relatively young earth.

How so? It only goes back to when God re plenished the earth. Just because our story starts out with the whole planet being without form and void, doesn't mean a thing about its history. Other parts of the Bible explicitly tell us about time before this.

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

Calminian said:
Just look at the greek gods. Very muscular, and they seemingly never died. This is what many of the early descendants of Noah would have experienced. I'm sure Shem and Eber and perhaps even Egypt (Misriam) and Ethiopia (Cush) outlived many countless descendants and maintained a very superior physical appearance.

What do you base that on?

Jig · Feb 18, 2013

BluhdoftheLamb said:
How so? It only goes back to when God re plenished the earth. Just because our story starts out with the whole planet being without form and void, doesn't mean a thing about its history. Other parts of the Bible explicitly tell us about time before this.

I'm guessing you believe in the gap theory?

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

Aman777 said:
Noah came from the first earth which was "clean dissolved" in the flood. He came to our earth and his grandsons married and produced children with the people who were already here when he arrived. Human civilization, on this planet, can be traced to Mesopotamia where Noah arrived and humans were scattered over the face of the whole earth from Babel, which was the FIRST human city on this planet and it was built by Noah's great grandson, Nimrod.

I still don't understand your theory, nor do I see Scriptural support for it. You must be stating that 2 different earths co-existed?

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
i reject the first chapter of genesis, because i don't think it is 'the inerrant word of god'. i think it is an adaptation of a sumerian creation myth, and part of the ancient world's cosmology. it is vastly superior to other surrounding cultures, but it is not the truth about how the universe was or is. if it is not the truth then it should be put aside.

Hermeneutics will tell you to read it as the original audience did, which was not at all similar to anything you've said here. Instead, it is God Himself claiming superiority over the gods of the the tribes surrounding the Hebrews, and God did so in order of their importance.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
i used to do a lot of eschatology, and spent years going over revelation and daniel. then suddenly, i realised that i had been fooled.

Apparently in your "research," you never read what the author of Revelation taught about it?

BluhdoftheLamb · Feb 18, 2013

Jig said:
I'm guessing you believe in the gap theory?

Not really, no. I know of no theory that accounts for what the Bible actually says.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2013

Calminian said:
Yeah I had a feeling you'd throw out N.T. inerrancy before admitting Jasher is errant. Seems you put more into personal revelations you receive than just trusting scripture.

I do not know what you are talking about.

Calminian said:
Stephen was right on the money.

So you think Genesis is wrong, then? Go look at what Genesis has to say about the time Israel was in Egypt, but you have to dig it out for yourself, because it was already written in Jasher, and quite plainly they were not in Egypt for 400 years according to Genesis.
I pointed out to you that Moses was the son of Levi's daughter, Jochebed, and I gave you the Scripture to prove it. Moses was 82 years old when Israel left Egypt, and his mother was born at the gate of Egypt, when Levi went in, so how you gonna stretch out Moses being born to a 318 year old woman, to come up with 400 years for Israel in Egypt?
Then, Joseph ruled in Egypt as the Pharaoh, under the Pharaoh that was there [in place of his addlepated son], and while Joseph ruled, Israel was blessed in Egypt, and prospered and were not slaves. Do you know how long Joseph lived after Israel entered Egypt and how long Israel lived in peace and prosperity in Egypt before Joseph was forgotten and Israel was harshly treated?

How long after Joseph died was Moses born? Do you know?
You can search Genesis and discover with painstaking care the answers to these questions, but Jasher lays it out from the beginning, in exact chronology.

As to the when the sons of Noah were born, the record in Genesis contradicts Jasher in no way. Jasher plainly states who was born when, but Genesis is not recording, again, the dates each son was born, because it was already in Jasher =the Upright Record, and so, we have these following statements in Genesis:

Gen 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were [children] born.

So Jasher tells us Japheth was born first, to Noah, and Shem last, but Shem has the preeminence, being the elect son who was given the blessing by Noah, of "firstborn" which carried the office of priest and king, and which blessing Shem gave to Abraham, the last born son of Terah, also.

Calminian said:
The Book of Jasher was known to Josephus and was known to be among the books laid up in the Temple in the first century.

Josephus knew there was a book of Jasher, but he never read it, never used it, and never knew what it said. I have read both, and Josephus errs in several places because of not having all the books. Josephus uses the Targum [sp?], which is faulty because of Isaiah 29:14

Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

2 Esdras tells of all the temple books being lost after the temple was burned by the Assyrians, and rewritten, miraculously, Esdras and his scribes wrote the 104 books used by the Jews, but 70 he was commanded to hide, leaving them 24 until the 70 are opened again.

Calminian said:
But this is the danger of simply trusting that every ancient document is inspired. You then are forced to choose between extra-biblical books and the Bible itself.

Please stop saying I have said any such a thing. I have repeatedly said the opposite of what you are saying that I have said.

I believe what the Jews believed, in that the Torah is inspired, and the histories are histories and the writings are writings.

I believe Enoch is inspired and Jasher is history, in the same class of all the histories we do have in the Bible -which are not "Thus saith YHWH", but are true history.

Calminian · Feb 19, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
I do not know what you are talking about.

Oh I think you do. You keep wanting to talk about the 400 vs. 430 years but keep avoiding what Stephen's testimony says about Abram's age relative to Terah's age. I'm trying to keep you focused.

Genesis 12 and Acts 7 confirm Abram was born when Terah was 130. Jasher contradicts this.

Now you keep trying to change the subject to a different issue, but let's take it one at a time. Why are you trusting Jasher over the Bible in regard to Abram's birth date? Why are you trusting a non-inspired history book (ostensibly one based on an ancient manuscript—which it very well may be) over the inspired texts of Genesis and Acts?

Now don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed Jasher quite a bit. But it can never rise to the level of judging scripture. Scripture must be its judge.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2013

Calminian said:
Oh I think you do. You keep wanting to talk about the 400 vs. 430 years but keep avoiding what Stephen's testimony says about Abram's age relative to Terah's age. I'm trying to keep you focused.

Genesis 12 and Acts 7 confirm Abram was born when Terah was 130. Jasher contradicts this.
.

About the thing I said "I do not know what you are talking about", I still don't!

Maybe I try to go too fast for you. Let's just begin here, and check the Torah account with Stephan's excellent heartfelt sermon to the Jews:

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=625

[SIZE=-1]Jewish History: Biblical History: The Hebrews in Egypt:[/SIZE]How long were the Hebrews in Egypt? How long were they enslaved there?
[FONT=arial, helvetica] The time from the arrival of Jacob and his family in Egypt until the Exodus was only 210 years. The 400 years in Gen.15:13 is from the birth of Isaac until the Exodus. Note that it doesn't say there that Abraham's seed would be "in Egypt" 400 years, but "in a land that is not theirs", and this was true as soon as Isaac (Abraham's seed; see Gen.21:12) was born. Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born (Gen.25:26), and Jacob came to Egypt when he was 130 (Gen.47:9). These 190 years must be subtracted from the 400, leaving 210 (Rashi on Gen.15:13). In Ex. 12:40 the Torah refers to the Hebrews having been in Egypt for 430 years, but this cannot be meant literally, because Levi's son Kehas was one of those who come to Egypt with Jacob (Gen.Ch.46), and the total lifespans of Kehas, Amram, and Moses don't add up to that much (see Ex.Ch.6). The 430 years started even before Isaac was born (when Abraham was 100), and even before Abraham finally left Charan at the age of 75 (Gen. 12:4). The Hebrews weren't mistreated in Egypt until Joseph and his brothers had died. Joseph was 39 when Jacob came to Egypt, and Levi was about 42. Joseph lived to 110 and Levi to 137, so the mistreatment didn't begin for the first 95 (out of 210) years. It was especially severe during the last 80 years, around the time of Moses' birth, when it was decreed that the male children should be killed. The transition from no oppression to severe oppression happened over a 35 year period (95+35+80 =210). [/FONT]

Is the Torah wrong, Calminian?

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2013

Gen 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were [children] born.

Abram was born last, to Terah, and listed first, in the Genesis record, just like Shem was listed first, born last, for they each inherited the office of "firstborn", with its blessing.

Gen 11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Jasher 7:23 And Peleg his brother begat Yen, and Yen begat Serug, and Serug begat Nahor and Nahor begat Terah, and Terah was thirty-eight years old, and he begat Haran and Nahor.

Haran and Nahor were twins, born to Terah when Terah was 38 years old. Abram was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old.

Haran begat Sarai, Milchah, and Lot.
Sarai was ten years younger than Abraham.
Sarai was also called Iscah.

Gen 11:29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife [was] Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
Gen 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Gen 6:10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Gen 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber,the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were [children] born.

Abram was born last, to Terah, and listed first, in the Genesis record, just like Shem was listed first, born last, for they each inherited the office of "firstborn", with its blessing.

Gen 11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Jasher 7:23 And Peleg his brother begat Yen, and Yen begat Serug, and Serug begat Nahor and Nahor begat Terah, and Terah was thirty-eight years old, and he begat Haran and Nahor.

Haran and Nahor were twins, born to Terah when Terah was 38 years old. Abram was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old.

Haran begat Sarai, Milchah, and Lot.
Sarai was ten years younger than Abraham.
Sarai was also called Iscah.

Gen 11:29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife [was] Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah.

Abram married his neice -legally also called his fathers daughter- who was ten years his younger. Haran died in the "fire of the chaldees" when he was 82 years old, leaving his two daughters and Lot fatherless.
Abram married Sarai, she was 39 years old.

6

And Haran the brother of Abram was burned to ashes, and they sought for his body, and they found it consumed.
37

And Haran was eighty-two years old when he died in the fire of Casdim. And the king, princes, and inhabitants of the land, seeing that Abram was delivered from the fire, they came and bowed down to Abram.
38

And Abram said to them, Do not bow down to me, but bow down to the God of the world who made you, and serve him, and go in his ways for it is he who delivered me from out of this fire, and it is he who created the souls and spirits of all men, and formed man in his mother's womb, and brought him forth into the world, and it is he who will deliver those who trust in him from all pain.
39

And this thing seemed very wonderful in the eyes of the king and princes, that Abram was saved from the fire and that Haran was burned; and the king gave Abram many presents and he gave him his two head servants from the king's house; the name of one was Oni and the name of the other was Eliezer

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2013

Abram left Haran to go to Canaan two times. The records are in Jasher, and corroboration is in Torah -with much painstaking labor to add all events with all ages to make a chart of the times of the happenings in the lives of the patriarchs.

Jasher chapter 12:
And the people of the land of Haran saw that Abram was good and upright with God and men, and that the Lord his God was with him, and some of the people of the land of Haran came and joined Abram, and he taught them the instruction of the Lord and his ways; and these men remained with Abram in his house and they adhered to him.
3

And Abram remained in the land three years, and at the expiration of three years the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him; I am the Lord who brought thee forth from Ur Casdim, and delivered thee from the hands of all thine enemies.
4

And now therefore if thou wilt hearken to my voice and keep my commandments, my statutes and my laws, then will I cause thy enemies to fall before thee, and I will multiply thy seed like the stars of heaven, and I will send my blessing upon all the works of thy hands, and thou shalt lack nothing.
5

Arise now, take thy wife and all belonging to thee and go to the land of Canaan and remain there, and I will there be unto thee for a God, and I will bless thee. And Abram rose and took his wife and all belonging to him, and he went to the land of Canaan as the Lord had told him; and Abram was fifty years old when he went from Haran.
6

And Abram came to the land of Canaan and dwelt in the midst of the city, and he there pitched his tent amongst the children of Canaan, inhabitants of the land.
7

And the Lord appeared to Abram when he came to the land of Canaan, and said to him, This is the land which I gave unto thee and to thy seed after thee forever, and I will make thy seed like the stars of heaven, and I will give unto thy seed for an inheritance all the lands which thou seest.
8

And Abram built an altar in the place where God had spoken to him, and Abram there called upon the name of the Lord.
9

At that time, at the end of three years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, in that year Noah died, which was the fifty-eighth year of the life of Abram; and all the days that Noah lived were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.
10

And Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan, he, his wife, and all belonging to him, and all those that accompanied him, together with those that joined him from the people of the land; but Nahor, Abram's brother, and Terah his father, and Lot the son of Haran and all belonging to them dwelt in Haran.
11

In the fifth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and all the cities of the plain revolted from the power of Chedorlaomer, king of Elam; for all the kings of the cities of the plain had served Chedorlaomer for twelve years, and given him a yearly tax, but in those days in the thirteenth year, they rebelled against him.
12

And in the tenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan there was war between Nimrod king of Shinar and Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Nimrod came to fight with Chedorlaomer and to subdue him.
13

For Chedorlaomer was at that time one of the princes of the hosts of Nimrod, and when all the people at the tower were dispersed and those that remained were also scattered upon the face of the earth, Chedorlaomer went to the land of Elam and reigned over it and rebelled against his lord.
14

And in those days when Nimrod saw that the cities of the plain had rebelled, he came with pride and anger to war with Chedorlaomer, and Nimrod assembled all his princes and subjects, about seven hundred thousand men, and went against Chedorlaomer, and Chedorlaomer went out to meet him with five thousand men, and they prepared for battle in the valley of Babel which is between Elam and Shinar.
15

And all those kings fought there, and Nimrod and his people were smitten before the people of Chedorlaomer, and there fell from Nimrod's men about six hundred thousand, and Mardon the king's son fell amongst them.
16

And Nimrod fled and returned in shame and disgrace to his land, and he was under subjection to Chedorlaomer for a long time, and Chedorlaomer returned to his land and sent princes of his host to the kings that dwelt around him, to Arioch king of Elasar, and to Tidal king of Goyim, and made a covenant with them, and they were all obedient to his commands.
17

And it was in the fifteenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, which is the seventieth year of the life of Abram, and the Lord appeared to Abram in that year and he said to him, I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur Casdim to give thee this land for an inheritance.
18

Now therefore walk before me and be perfect and keep my commands, for to thee and to thy seed I will give this land for an inheritance, from the river Mitzraim unto the great river Euphrates.
19

And thou shalt come to thy fathers in peace and in good age, and the fourth generation shall return here in this land and shall inherit it forever; and Abram built an altar, and he called upon the name of the Lord who appeared to him, and he brought up sacrifices upon the altar to the Lord.
20

At that time Abram returned and went to Haran to see his father and mother, and his father's household, and Abram and his wife and all belonging to him returned to Haran, and Abram dwelt in Haran five years.
21

And many of the people of Haran, about seventy-two men, followed Abram and Abram taught them the instruction of the Lord and his ways, and he taught them to know the Lord.
22

In those days the Lord appeared to Abram in Haran, and he said to him, Behold, I spoke unto thee these twenty years back saying,
23

Go forth from thy land, from thy birth-place and from thy father's house, to the land which I have shown thee to give it to thee and to thy children, for there in that land will I bless thee, and make thee a great nation, and make thy name great, and in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed.
24

Now therefore arise, go forth from this place, thou, thy wife, and all belonging to thee, also every one born in thy house and all the souls thou hast made in Haran, and bring them out with thee from here, and rise to return to the land of Canaan.
25

And Abram arose and took his wife Sarai and all belonging to him and all that were born to him in his house and the souls which they had made in Haran, and they came out to go to the land of Canaan.
26

And Abram went and returned to the land of Canaan, according to the word of the Lord. And Lot the son of his brother Haran went with him, and Abram was seventy-five years old when he went forth from Haran to return to the land of Canaan.
27

And he came to the land of Canaan according to the word of the Lord to Abram, and he pitched his tent and he dwelt in the plain of Mamre, and with him was Lot his brother's son, and all belonging to him.
28

And the Lord again appeared to Abram and said, To thy seed will I give this land; and he there built an altar to the Lord who appeared to him, which is still to this day in the plains of Mamre.

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