Fishy Evolution

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

I was watching TV this morning and the news reported claims that scientists have said that hic-cups could be a throw back to when humans were fish. It did not ellaborate in details but something to do when "we" had gills. Can we really take this seriously???

seebs · Feb 6, 2003

I have no idea, I'd need to know more about what they were talking about.

lithium. · Feb 6, 2003

Originally posted by seebs
I have no idea, I'd need to know more about what they were talking about.

I agree with seebs, I would have to learn more abou it.

MSBS · Feb 6, 2003

Can you take it seriously? Probably not. Figure that anything you see on a TV has been dumbed down to about an eight grade level.

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

Well it was just reported on GMTV (UK morning TV). I never heard of it before either.

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

Originally posted by MSBS
Can you take it seriously? Probably not. Figure that anything you see on a TV has been dumbed down to about an eight grade level.

Why you know something about it then?

DivineOb · Feb 6, 2003

Here's a link

news_bbc_co_uk/2/hi/health/2730251.stm

Sorry, you have to replace the _ with .

lithium. · Feb 6, 2003

lol thanks for the link

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

Originally posted by DivineOb
Here's a link

news_bbc_co_uk/2/hi/health/2730251.stm

Sorry, you have to replace the _ with .

Made it easier to click on to   

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2730251.stm

Agggghhh eventually made it easier 

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

I will never eat cousin Cod again Oh my goodness brother Bass what have I done! (burp) 

Nathan David · Feb 6, 2003

I read the article. It seems plausible to me. Nothing radical about the idea.

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

Serious now. If the story had some truth in it, how long would it take for evolution to iron out and remove some throw backs after millions of years?
If certain genetic tendencies exist for humans from fish what other things have we retained from apes after only a relatively brief 2 million years?

Melchior · Feb 6, 2003

Originally posted by webboffin
Serious now. If the story had some truth in it, how long would it take for evolution to iron out and remove some throw backs after millions of years?
If certain genetic tendencies exist for humans from fish what other things have we retained from apes after only a relatively brief 2 million years?

Actually, it doesn't take that long.  If you read the article closely, you will see that it mentions that there HAS to be a reason why it is still present in humans and many mammals.  We haven't been using our appendix for approximately 6-4 thousand years, and it is already on the evolutionary path to non-existance.

Nathan David · Feb 6, 2003

Yes as the article says the scientists in question think the hiccuping reflex may help babies nurse.

If certain genetic tendencies exist for humans from fish what other things have we retained from apes after only a relatively brief 2 million years?

General body structure, sexual dimorphism, vocal communication, and elaborate social structure, just to name a few.

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

Okay, I can see what you saying looking from an evolutionist angle about apes.
But can anyone just say with hic-cups, "Ah yes, that is from when we were a fish" with such a loosely put together idea? Or is this really just another speculation that is as good/bad as any other?

ifriit · Feb 6, 2003

webboffin: Okay, I can see what you saying looking from an evolutionist angle about apes.
But can anyone just say with hic-cups, "Ah yes, that is from when we were a fish" with such a loosely put together idea? Or is this really just another speculation that is as good/bad as any other?

Please, read the article.  It seems pretty clear that (a) we don't have any really good idea of why we hiccup, and (b) the things we do when we hiccup are similar to--and functional in--more primitive air breathers.  Now, since evolutionary theory indicates that we probably developed from such organisms, why would it not make sense for hiccupping to have just hung on?

Also, since you discount this theory so much for no discernable reason, what is your obviously superior hypothesis?

webboffin · Feb 6, 2003

a) I at best say is we hic-cup from the days we suckled as babies. If I (though not often) have had it it is been on the occasion after eating or drinking. Probably to keep airways active and cleared. And babies often do it after feeding. There that is my hypothesis. Sounds (to me) better/likely than fish throw back.
b) I am not going to ask why we came from fish have enough with apes.
c) Chill out, I am being partially in humour. I didn't expect evolutionists to take this news aboard just on first word and webpage alone. Or actively believe it. I know you don't automatically believe every new evolutionist proposition just because a scientist notioned it. I do hold you with higher regard than that, and I know you treat your evoloution theories just as seriously as a creationist takes theirs. Albeit with a lot of debate. But creationists have often been at the end of humour too so live and let live.

ocean · Feb 6, 2003

I think it is a plausible, though unproven hypothesis.

Jerry Smith · Feb 6, 2003

Everybody knows hiccups are caused by beer.

MSBS · Feb 6, 2003

In case anyone is interested:

Hypothesis
A phylogenetic hypothesis for the origin of hiccough
C. Straus 1 2 3 *, K. Vasilakos 1, R. J. A. Wilson 1, T. Oshima 1 5, M. Zelter 2 3, J-Ph. Derenne 2 4, T. Similowski 2 4, W. A. Whitelaw 1
1Respiratory Research Group, Department of Medical Physiology Faculty of Medicine, University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada
2UPRES EA 2397, Faculté de Médecine Pitié-Salpêtrière, Université Paris, VI, France
3Service Central d'Explorations Fonctionnelles Respiratoires, Groupe Hospitalier Pitie-Salpetriere, Assistance Publique-Hôpitaux de Paris, Paris, France
4Service de Pneumologie, Groupe Hospitalier Pitie-Salpetriere, Assistance Publique-Hôpitaux de Paris, Paris, France
5Department of Anesthesiology, Gifu University School of Medicine, Gifu-City, Japan

email: C. Straus (christian.straus@psl.ap-hop-paris.fr)

*Correspondence to C. Straus, Explorations Fonctionnelles Respiratoires, Groupe Hospitalier Pitié-Salpêtrère, 47-83, Boulevard de l'Hôpital, 75651 Paris Cedex 13, France.

Funded by:
The Association pour le Développement et l'Organisation de la Recherche en Pneumologie (ADOREP)

Abstract
The occurrence of hiccoughs (hiccups) is very widespread and yet their neuronal origin and physiological significance are still unresolved. Several hypotheses have been proposed. Here we consider a phylogenetic perspective, starting from the concept that the ventilatory central pattern generator of lower vertebrates provides the base upon which central pattern generators of higher vertebrates develop. Hiccoughs are characterized by glottal closure during inspiration and by early development in relation to lung ventilation. They are inhibited when the concentration of inhaled CO2 is increased and they can be abolished by the drug baclofen (an agonist of the GABAB receptor). These properties are shared by ventilatory motor patterns of lower vertebrates, leading to the hypothesis that hiccough is the expression of archaic motor patterns and particularly the motor pattern of gill ventilation in bimodal breathers such as most frogs. A circuit that can generate hiccoughs may persist in mammals because it has permitted the development of pattern generators for other useful functions of the pharynx and chest wall muscles, such as suckling or eupneic breathing. BioEssays 25:182-188, 2003. © 2003 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

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