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Fine tuning, a new approach

Oncedeceived

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Got what wrong?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Scientists in the field claim it is unlikely, that is where that comes from.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I never said the paper discussed technological limitations.
 
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KCfromNC

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It talked about how it was determined.

Go ahead, explain it to us. Which model did he use to calculate whatever it is you think he did?

I didn't.

One of your sources says 1 in 10^10^123. Another says 1 in 10^229. Either they're disagreeing or one (or both) were attempts to dodge my question rather than answer it.

The unlikeliness of the universe have the precise values that allow for life by chance has been presented by quotes and by Smolin and Penrose.

And strangely enough, the quotes you've given have lots of contradictory numbers.

No reason for me to take your belief seriously?
 
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KCfromNC

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Scientists in the field claim it is unlikely, that is where that comes from.
And yet for some reason when we dig into those claims, none of them agrees on how likely it might or might not be. Almost as if there's no scientific consensus and this whole idea is an argument deeply rooted in our ignorance of the subject.
 
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bhsmte

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And yet for some reason when we dig into those claims, none of them agrees on how likely it might or might not be. Almost as if there's no scientific consensus and this whole idea is an argument deeply rooted in our ignorance of the subject.

We call that, the small details and details that are ignored, because they dont align with the story.
 
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KCfromNC

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I never said the paper discussed technological limitations.

You said the paper ran up against certain technological limitations. I was hoping you'd go into detail on exactly what those limitations were and how they impacted the conclusions the paper. Because when I read the paper, it said exactly nothing about this. Guess it is another thing the authors got wrong. They failed to include the stuff that you - someone who hasn't read the paper - really really believes should be in there.
 
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So, what do you think Carr's conclusion is? Why not just read it as it would have been far quicker than making endless excuses for why you still haven't read your own citation?
 
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Explain why the scientists in the field then use the term precision when discussing how fine tuned the universe is.
Because precision is related to any apparent tuning. Order of magnitude is not.

I'd try to explain more thoroughly, but I honestly have no idea what isn't clicking for you. I really figured the example with 1 g, 1000 mg, and .001 Kg would do the trick, but somehow you are still spinning your wheels on the concept.
 
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Oncedeceived

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So, what do you think Carr's conclusion is? Why not just read it as it would have been far quicker than making endless excuses for why you still haven't read your own citation?
Yes, he claims the anthropic principal and at that time he didn't think that there were but a few fine tuned parameters.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Ok. Lets just get down to the brass tacks. Do you agree with the scientific conclusion that the universe's fundamental constants have the very necessary values that allow for intelligent life to exist IN OUR UNIVERSE?
 
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Oncedeceived

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And yet for some reason when we dig into those claims, none of them agrees on how likely it might or might not be. Almost as if there's no scientific consensus and this whole idea is an argument deeply rooted in our ignorance of the subject.
Actually the argument is based on what we know, what we don't know.
 
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Yes, he claims the anthropic principal and at that time he didn't think that there were but a few fine tuned parameters.
Then why do you list him as a scientist that supports fine tuning?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Then why do you list him as a scientist that supports fine tuning?
I provided this as an early paper that discussed fine tuning early on. My point was to show how it was first discovered and how it has developed even more since then. I seriously wish I had not as it has became very convoluted and has become the focus when it was just a lead in to the argument.
 
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Ok. Lets just get down to the brass tacks. Do you agree with the scientific conclusion that the universe's fundamental constants have the very necessary values that allow for intelligent life to exist IN OUR UNIVERSE?
That all caps seems redundant. Like, does life in our universe depend on the values in our universe? Sure. God is finely tuned to want life but to not exempt such life from such constraints. That's part of the fine tuning of God. (hey, back on topic!)

But I can't rule out other types of life existing under very different constants.
 
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But then you listed him as a scientist that agreed with fine tuning. If your list of scientists who accept fine tuning includes people who think the anthropic principle negates fine tuning, it's not much of a list, is it?
 
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Oncedeceived

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But then you listed him as a scientist that agreed with fine tuning. If your list of scientists who accept fine tuning includes people who think the anthropic principle negates fine tuning, it's not much of a list, is it?
How does the anthropic principle negate fine tuning?
 
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