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By contrast, the Big Bang is a beginning that is required by the dynamical laws that govern the universe. It is therefore intrinsic to the universe, and is not imposed on it from outside."My point is in bold
I said: Ok, so I can clearly see how God being an intelligent being with a rational mind and total creative power could provide explanation for laws that govern His creation. How do you explain the laws not having an origin?How is that a dodge? The whole subject of this thread is taking the logic that leads you to say the universe is fine tuned and applying it to a creator deity.
Outside the universe? the only thing that can go outside the universe is our imaginations.It is therefore intrinsic to the universe, and is not imposed on it from outside."
What kind of explanation are you looking for - in the absence of causation as we know it?How do you explain the laws not having an origin?
But the laws have always been there, humans named the laws as they found them.How do you explain the laws not having an origin?
Well that simply is untrue. Why would the laws have always been there when they are here to govern our universe.But the laws have always been there, humans named the laws as they found them.
Once man didn't know what caused things to happen so they said they were caused by Gods, as our knowledge grew so the needs for Gods as an explanation diminished, only in backward countries are Gods still used as an explanation for anything.
Everything we know of that comes into being has a cause is that not true?What kind of explanation are you looking for - in the absence of causation as we know it?
This was a quote from the quote Serious gave me from Stephen Hawking.Outside the universe? the only thing that can go outside the universe is our imaginations.
You don´t even seem to read the quotes you are posting.Everything we know of that comes into being has a cause is that not true?
I am asking you if it is true that everything that begins needs a cause? Even the quotes are claiming there is a cause for the universe to exist.You don´t even seem to read the quotes you are posting.
Yeah, you did that in order to dodge my question.I am asking you if it is true that everything that begins needs a cause?
Even the quotes are claiming there is a cause for the universe to exist.
The evidence of which we are speaking in regard to the link is for nothing and then space, matter, energy and time come into being. That is the evidence, we are then asked to contemplate the origin of the universe as having no prior cause or Prime Mover. Why because the universe before the universe we have no evidence that a natural or supernatural cause can be shown. Now what could a scientist that does not believe in God say but since there is no natural cause that could be shown but that no supernatural cause would not be able to operate either. However, while we can legitimately know why a natural cause could not operate, how does one determine that the supernatural could not cause it? Now it is fine that he believes that a supernatural cause can't operate but that is based on his opinion but he has nothing to support that opinion. While a natural cause can be shown unable to work against the natural workings of the universe, there is nothing that he uses to support why a supernatural one would be unable to.Yeah, you did that in order to dodge my question.
I´ll answer yours right after you have answered mine.
As quoted by you:
Because normal physical causation takes place within time, with effect following cause, there is a natural tendency to envisage a chain of causation stretching back in time, either without any beginning, or else terminating in a metaphysical First Cause, or Uncaused Cause, or Prime Mover. But cosmologists now invite us to contemplate the origin of the universe as having no prior cause in the normal sense, not because it has an abnormal or supernatural prior cause, but because there is simply no prior epoch in which a preceding causative agency -- natural or supernatural -- can operate. Paul Davies, What came before the Big Bang.
So you disagree with the quote you posted.The evidence of which we are speaking in regard to the link is for nothing and then space, matter, energy and time come into being. That is the evidence, we are then asked to contemplate the origin of the universe as having no prior cause or Prime Mover. Why because the universe before the universe we have no evidence that a natural or supernatural cause can be shown. Now what could a scientist that does not believe in God say but since there is no natural cause that could be shown but that no supernatural cause would not be able to operate either. However, while we can legitimately know why a natural cause could not operate, how does one determine that the supernatural could not cause it? Now it is fine that he believes that a supernatural cause can't operate but that is based on his opinion but he has nothing to support that opinion. While a natural cause can be shown unable to work against the natural workings of the universe, there is nothing that he uses to support why a supernatural one would be unable to.
By always I meant since it all began.Well that simply is untrue. Why would the laws have always been there when they are here to govern our universe.
All except your god of course, he get's a pass for some reason.Everything we know of that comes into being has a cause is that not true?
Yet, these same scientists are trying very hard to find a cause for the universe to exist, such as other universes or/and quantum events. Now the evidence is that there is no natural cause that can explain it, so either it is completely out of the norm for what we have encountered for natural occurring phenomena and doesn't need a cause or it is supernaturally caused. I find that a very powerful, intelligent supreme being who claims that the universe began and came from nothing in which he created other intelligent beings with the ability to comprehend it is a better explanation than a naturalistic one that goes against all scientific models determined and confirmed throughout time.So you disagree with the quote you posted.
The point here is: If there is no "Prior to the Universe" there is no reason to assume that causality is even an appropriate concept. Just like with no "North to the Northpole": Nothing comes from north of the Northpole - natural or supernatural.
That is the theology of my theism, a claim that came long before the universe was known to have a beginning or evidence of nothing prior to it.All except your god of course, he get's a pass for some reason.
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