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Finding limitations in Naturalism

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bhsmte

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I will respond with this; I trust the scientific community to find answers to explain our world, much more so than any holy book, feelings a person has about being connected to God, etc..

The track record of science is something that can be relied upon (it has credibility), while the track record of religious claims and or the bible itself, is not credible. Religious beliefs have had to adapt to science (how many christians believed in evolution 100 years ago?) as opposed to the opposite and I would imagine, as science makes further discoveries, the gaps where God is inserted, will close even tighter.

Is science perfect? Nothing is perfect, but the culture and methodology of science does not allow false claims (within science) to have a long shelf life.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I actually agree with you on that point.



Well, that conversation is a non-starter until and unless someone defines 'awareness' and demonstrates that it's "real".

Well, if we're using the physical world as a benchmark, let's start there -- how can we show the "spiritual realm" to be "real," insofar as the physical world is also "real"?

Why do they need to "step forward"?

Well, I'm certainly not going to accept Heissonear's (or any one person's) word on it without something more substantial to back it up -- are you?

A personal appearance would be a good start -- personally, I'm rooting for the Norse pantheon.
 
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Michael

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Well, if we're using the physical world as a benchmark, let's start there -- how can we show the "spiritual realm" to be "real," insofar as the physical world is also "real"?

I think we have to define "real" and demonstrate that awareness is 'real'. 'Spirituality' seems to be an "experience" of "awareness". Without a definition of awareness, and an agreement that awareness is real and exists in nature, "spirituality" is kind of a non starter of a conversation.

Well, I'm certainly not going to accept Heissonear's (or any one person's) word on it without something more substantial to back it up -- are you?
There are any number of accounts in the bookstore of humans having similar types of experiences. Can we assume *none* of them have any value at all?

A personal appearance would be a good start -- personally, I'm rooting for the Norse pantheon.
Jesus actually made a personal appearance on Earth and he's winning.
 
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Greg1234

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bhsmte: "as science makes further discoveries, the gaps where God is inserted, will close even tighter."

I can understand a materialist having physical experiences and gradually squeezing out spiritual experiences. (Jn 12:40). But making it the universal hub of knowledge? Why?
 
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bhsmte

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The University of Chicago did a study on "belief in God" which is available if you google it. It appears pretty exhaustive and it displays a consistent decline in belief in most advanced countries, some of which are much lower than the US. It also breaks down several other questions; do you believe God is a personal God, etc., which makes the results even more interesting.

I don't know how to post links or even if I can, sorry.
 
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TLK Valentine

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So why not give a definition of "awareness" that you fell comfortable with, and we'll start from there.

There are any number of accounts in the bookstore of humans having similar types of experiences. Can we assume *none* of them have any value at all?

Shall we assume they are all legitimate at face value without investigation/criticism?

Jesus actually made a personal appearance on Earth and he's winning.

If this were a popularity contest -- and even then, Mohammed is at a close second and catching up.

I'd prefer to hear from the deities themselves, not their fan clubs.
 
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bhsmte

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First of all, one can be spiritual and not believe in your God. Second, have you learned more about the reality of the world we live in from science, or from the bible?
 
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Johnnz

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Change the wording to a belif in a spiritual realm and figures go 60% upwards. Any intellectual imperialism that simply ignores the huge Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist countries, plus the many 'primitive' peoples and you folk are a small minority in a very religious world. Then again, your views are faith based anyway a kind of secular religion.

John
NZ
 
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bhsmte

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The study includes muslim, hindu etc.
 
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bhsmte

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OK. That still makes naturalism very much a minority position. Plus, western figures for some spiritual belief still stand.

John
NZ

I don't know where you are getting your terms. The study does not address "naturalism" it addresses the peoples of different countries "belief in God".
 
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Johnnz

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I don't know where you are getting your terms. The study does not address "naturalism" it addresses the peoples of different countries "belief in God".

From the title of this thread. Your posts are consistent with that position, and although it may not be what you do believe my comments were made with this topic in mind.

John
NZ
 
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bhsmte

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From the title of this thread. Your posts are consistent with that position, and although it may not be what you do believe my comments were made with this topic in mind.

John
NZ

All fine and good, but I was interacting with another poster in regards to a point he brought up on how dominant christianity was in the world, so I mentioned the study. The study says what it says.
 
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Michael

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I will respond with this; I trust the scientific community to find answers to explain our world, much more so than any holy book, feelings a person has about being connected to God, etc..

Well, that's understandable to a point from my perspective, but a tad naive as well IMO. Humans are humans. They create 'groups', including scientific groups, religious groups, political groups. They all suffer from the pitfalls of human imperfection. Inflation, dark energy and SUSY theory seem about as goofy to me as any religious concept might seem to you. I'll reserve judgement on some of QM, but even large parts of that theory are "acts of faith" on the part of the believer.

The track record of science is something that can be relied upon (it has credibility),
I would agree with you that 'empirical physics' (stuff that shows up in the lab) has a fantastic track record of providing results. Not all things however are as 'tangible' in the lab as others. "Awareness" for instance has a tangible effect on the world around us. The "observer" is in fact a highly integral part of the "scientific method". Without that observer, there is no form of "science". But what exactly *is* awareness? Is there a property of hydrogen and oxygen and various atoms that explains it? Is it "tangible"? How do we define it's "source"? Can we demonstrate a real 'cause/effect' relationship between the source and awareness? Empirical physics eventually has some limits in terms of being able to fully explain every aspect of reality. I still trust the process implicitly as you do, but I realize it has limits, and most "scientists" accept that fact too.

while the track record of religious claims and or the bible itself, is not credible.
In terms of the "effects" on my life, I have found the words of Jesus to be highly credible. The effect isn't "tangible" in the way we might prefer, but I can't deny the results upon my life.

There are passages in any historical account that I tend to find objectionable, but I will say that the passages that are attributed to Jesus (red letters) have had a profound effect on me, and I trust them completely.

Religious beliefs have had to adapt to science (how many christians believed in evolution 100 years ago?)
But "scientists" have also had to adapt to new data just like everyone else. Are you condemning science too for changing it's mind based upon new evidence, or just religion? Is your standard a fair standard, or is there a subjective choice in there somewhere that you're making?

as opposed to the opposite and I would imagine, as science makes further discoveries, the gaps where God is inserted, will close even tighter.
I'm not sure if you've read any part of those Empirical theory of God threads I started, but you'll discover that the universe is absolutely full of so called "Gaps" in which we might discover an intelligence that is greater than our own. In terms of what 'science' actually "knows" about the universe, 95 percent of our physical universe is "dark" to science. They have no idea what the 'source' of dark energy might be, or inflation, or mythical particles of matter. The gaps are actually *huge*, and astronomers have been creating *more gaps*, not less gaps in recent years, most notably string theory that requires *multiple extra dimensions* to exist. Talk about 'gaps of knowledge'. There's a lot to learn about our universe, even by my way of looking at things, and I have no faith at all in extra dimensions. If they do exist, how much room for an "intelligent creator" might exist in 7 or so extra dimensions?

Is science perfect? Nothing is perfect, but the culture and methodology of science does not allow false claims (within science) to have a long shelf life.
Likewise religion isn't perfect, but it does "evolve" over time. I find no conflict in my present beliefs between empirical physics and my "religious viewpoints" at the moment. If such a conflict arises I'll be happy to address it. At the moment however, it's simply not an issue.

FYI, dark energy has been around for almost 20 years. Inflation has been around for 30+ years. They are in fact 'false claims' and their shelf life has been *way* too long.

I suspect that even in my lifetime we'll see a *huge* change in the "science" of astronomy, a change that will even affect the way we travel in spacetime. A very similar process could occur in particle physics too, but that's open to debate. Assuming either of those scientific changes occurs in your lifetime, would you simply 'abandon your faith in science' (the scientific method), or would you just change your scientific viewpoints and continue to appreciate the benefits of science?

If we allow for changes in science (as we must), shouldn't we also allow for changes in "religion" as well?
 
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Michael

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So why not give a definition of "awareness" that you fell comfortable with, and we'll start from there.

Hmmm. I'm not sure you'll like my ideas.

I'd personally guess it's more of a quantum process that arises as a result of the fact that awareness is an intrinsic part of 'reality'. Awareness is capable of manifesting itself in a variety of forms, via chemical and electrical interactions between various elements and molecules. It's essentially a "physical process" at some point involving chemistry, electrical activity, and quantum physics.

Shall we assume they are all legitimate at face value without investigation/criticism?

I wouldn't assume them to all be legitimate nor illegitimate without investigation. I don't have to make such an assumption to support my beliefs in fact.

If this were a popularity contest -- and even then, Mohammed is at a close second and catching up.

Close? Hmm. Well, Mohammed will technically never be able to "catch up" to Jesus since both Jesus and Muhammad are considered to be 'prophets' of God in Islam. Christians are currently the largest religious group on the planet and they will likely always exist in some number, tipping the scales toward Jesus for as far as the eye can see.

I'd prefer to hear from the deities themselves, not their fan clubs.

That could only occur by listening to spacetime IMO. In the meantime you can hear from Jesus (and others) that are considered "experts" on the topic of God.

Do you prefer to 'hear from" inflation, and dark energy, gravitons, and exotic matter, or do you just accept the 'expert opinions" on those topics?
 
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bhsmte

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No one has attempted to stop the vast changes (or sprouting of numerous variations), but have simply questioned this; if the holy book is God's word, why should a belief based on a book that comes from God, have to be altered?

Now, I realize not all believers take the bible as seriously as others, but there is a large percentage (at least in the United States) who do and those are the folks I take issue with.

Again, I am a big proponent of trust and credibility. I have learned that science has credibility and can be trusted to "get it right" even if it takes corrections along the way, because science is not biased in the same sense that belief in a God can be biased. Sure some scientists may really want their ideas to be correct and it could impact their work (they are human), but there are far two many forces (in science) that would eventually expose any short term bias and eventually get to the truth. I can't say the same for religion.

As I have probably made pretty clear in other posts, I personally believe individual psychology plays a large role in whether someone believes in something without objective evidence, but chooses to deny other other things that have objective evidence. I believed at one point and in my case, it was indeed a psychological need I was trying to fulfill.
 
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Michael

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No one has attempted to stop the vast changes (or sprouting of numerous variations), but have simply questioned this; if the holy book is God's word, why should a belief based on a book that comes from God, have to be altered?

Well for starters, not everyone "interprets" any book exactly the same way. Two people can look at almost any book or data set and come out with completely *different* ideas about it. For instance, while I value the Bible, I don't "interpret' that book to support YEC. Catholics do not either. Some folks do. Now what? Shouldn't we rely upon *other resources*, particularly scientific resources when deciding what might be the 'best interpretation"?

Now, I realize not all believers take the bible as seriously as others, but there is a large percentage (at least in the United States) who do and those are the folks I take issue with.
It's not that I don't take the Bible "seriously", I simply choose not to interpret it 'literally' as some people do. I doubt that a Catholic takes the Bible any less seriously than a Protestant.

That's the "naivete" part. Yes, science can be 'biased', just like any other group, and scientific beliefs can be biased. In terms of pure physics, inelastic scattering and moving objects have a demonstrated effect on photons. None of astronomy's hypothetical entities has any observed effect on a photon in any controlled experiment. If empirical physics is the ultimate standard, it's *easy* to demonstrate a scientific bias as well.

Likewise, I lost my faith in "some religion", and I could never go back to my original religious viewpoints anymore than I could go back to believing in Lambda-CDM. I haven't given up on *all* of science however, nor have I give up on *all* forms of religion.

I once too had almost "absolute faith" in science and scientists, but I lost that faith, just like I lost my faith in "Christianity" in my youth. Even though I can embrace a form of pure empirical physics and "science" as it relates to astronomy (EU/PC theory), I could *never* go back to believing in Lambda-CDM. My faith in "science' is not diminished, but my faith in "scientists" (astronomers specifically) has been diminished rather greatly over the last 8 years. It's not that there is a problem with 'science' or the scientific method IMO, it's a problem with human nature that we all want to "be right' about whatever the topic might be. I don't blame science for the sins of scientists, nor do I blame religion for the sins of a few religious folks.

As I have probably made pretty clear in other posts, I personally believe individual psychology plays a large role in whether someone believes in something without objective evidence,
The individual ends up deciding what is 'objective evidence'. Define 'objective evidence'? FYI, I'm fine with "empirical (shows up in the lab) physics", but then you'll have to give up most of physics.

but chooses to deny other other things that have objective evidence. I believed at one point and in my case, it was indeed a psychological need I was trying to fulfill.
You're right that there is a psychological need to 'be right' that can affect everything that we believe in. Letting go of 'being right" however can be as difficult or more difficult in the scientific world as it can be in the religious world.

For instance, YEC tend to believe that YEC is *an integral part* of their religion. It's "important" to them for some reason. It's not important to me however, nor is it an integral part of my religion.

Likewise Lambda-CDM, including *all* of it's hypothetical entities is highly important to some few individuals (typically astronomers). It's not important at all to me personally, particularly since none of those hypothetical entities has ever been shown to have any effect on so much as a single photon in a real lab experiment.

I therefore find that when I discuss these two topics with 'certain' individuals, I get a highly *emotional* (not physics oriented) response. I'm often "blamed" in terms of my views, sometimes even attacked for them. In terms of how many times I've been 'virtually lynched" for my "heresy" on these topics however, I can tell you that I've never been virtually crucified at a religious website over my lack of belief in YEC, but I have been crucified several times for my lack of belief in so called 'scientific' explanations.

IMO astronomers can actually be more virtually violent than most religious websites. I simply don't share your "faith" in all forms of "science", nor do I share your faith that "science" is inherently any more 'self correcting" than religion.

All human psyche's suffer from the same human pitfalls.
 
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bhsmte

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Well, I don't use the term "faith" I choose to use the term "trust".

If I am naive for trusting science to make progress in explaining the world we live in (as it has for centuries), than it is certainly possible that I am naive and only good old time will be the final determinant of that.

I could go into a long explanation as to why I could label "believers in God" as naive, but will simply let my previous posts on the subject deal with that.
 
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bhsmte

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bhsmte: "First of all, one can be spiritual and not believe in your God. Second, have you learned more about the reality of the world we live in from science, or from the bible? __________________"

What do you think?

Well, I know the answer as it pertains to myself, the question was asked of you.
 
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