Fatima

Tommore · Feb 10, 2005

Hi everyone; I would like to broach a topic that in some circles is causing concern. I have spent the better part of one year studying not only the message of Fatima, but Father Nicholas Gruner, the Fatima Priest. I have come to the conclusion that the missinformation and disinformation concerning this priest is cause for deep concern.
1) It has been said he is suspended. Not so, he is a priest in good standing with the full support of his Bishop, in otherwords he is incardinated. 2) To my knowledge he has no letter, no e-mail, no fax, no telegram, nor has he had a visit from anyone to tell him he is suspended. 3) He fully supports the Holy Father, and there is no proof otherwise. As a matter of fact I have seen three letters from the Holy Father's personal secretary which wish Father Gruner well. The letters are available for all to read.
The question begs to be asked, what has he done wrong?
In Mel Gibson's movie Our Lord has the opportunity to appear before Pontius Pilate to be judged. A condemned crimianal has the rifght to appeal to the President of the USA. Yet we the lay people judge Father Gruner without one iota of proof. We tread on dangerous ground when we condemn one of God's own chosen priests without proof.
Tommore

Dominus Fidelis · Feb 10, 2005

What is the story?

Michelina · Feb 10, 2005

I know this story very well. Fr Gruner was suspended the day after 9/11, a fact which he disparaged by saying that Vatican had better things to do.

The Holy See has been trying to get G to place himself under a Bishop for many years. G is a loose cannon who has never (really) submitted himself to any authority.

I happen to know Fr. G. He is a very sincere and devout priest who truly believed he was destined to be the great Apostle of Fatima. He continually harangued the Pope who consecrated Russia to Our Blessed Mother, claiming that the Pope had not done it the right way, i.e. his way. But his suspension has nothing (directly) to do with that. It has to do with being in submission to some ecclesiastical authority (a Bishop or religious superior). The Church does not ordain priests to "do their own thing".

plainswolf · Feb 10, 2005

I have seen no definitive statements declaring Father Gruner's a divinis supsension. The only thing I've heard is someone claiming to to have been informed by someone in the vatican yet no documents produced proving this charge. So who knows.. However despite Father Gruner, many simply believe as he believes on the subject of Fatima irrregardless of him.

Father Gruner was ordered to return to Avellino only if he did not find another bishop; that nevertheless he did find another bishop (the Archbishop Arrupala of Hyderabad); Father Gruners persecution is attested to by the Archbishop of Hyderabad, who has incardinated Father Gruner in his archdiocese and praises and supports his Fatima apostolate. In his formal decree incardinating Father Gruner the Archbishop declared: "Evil forces have conspired to destroy your work of love . . . Bureaucratic forces cannot stifle Gods work."

The Archbishops decree was a forthright rejection of the Congregations arbitrary declaration that the incardination of Father Gruner in Hyderabad in 1995 was "non-existent":

"Having reviewed the documents of Father Nicholas Gruner, including the letter from the Diocese of Avellino, dated August 4, 1989, I am satisfied that my decree of November 4, 1995, incardinating Father Gruner into the Archdiocese of Hyderabad is valid and effective, and he is validly incardinated as a priest of the Archdiocese of Hyderabad from that date . . . After due discernment, I am convinced that I am acting correctly though I was partly misled by influential people. I strongly feel that the good work he is doing in spreading devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary should not be hampered for the present, especially through undue canonical or juridical pressures. May Jesus Christ be Praised!"

The Archbishops decree had been forwarded to the Bishop of Avellino in August of 1999, and the bishop has yet to reply. Would the Congregation exercise its newly-acquired "vicarious" papal authority, issuing a "papal" order nullifying an Archbishops decree? Or would it concede that it had no authority to do so and remain silent, as it did after the 1989 intervention? If so, how could it be claimed that Father Gruner had been "suspended" for "disobeying" the Bishop of Avellino, when an Archbishop in India had decreed that Father Gruner was a priest of his Archdiocese, not Avellino?

I don't see it as an issue of whether the requests of Fatima have been done according to how so-and-so think or want it to be done, but rather if it has been done as Our Lady requested it. Awefully hard to Consecrate a specific Country without even mentioning it, but instead substituting the world.
When a priest is ordained, he is called apart from his family and his community. It is he alone and specifically that is consecrated. Not his whole family or community instead. The Holy Father knows this well and is the reason he achnowledged this at the end of that ceremony in 1984 when he said: "Enlighten especially those of whose entrustment and consecration you are still awaiting."

But as far as Father Gruner is concerned, I would like to see documented proof of his suspension. Until then all is hearsay. And I would extend this benefit of doubt to any priest. However I must commend him on his Faith and Morals teaching... outstanding! Especially in this day and age.

J.M.J.
Mark

Michelina · Feb 11, 2005

The Holy See has suspended Fr. Gruner. Fr G publicly acknowledged that fact when he argued against the validity of the suspension.

Archbishop Arrupala does not have the authority to "un-suspend" him.

A suspension a divinis is a canonical fact, whether one agrees with the reasoning behind the suspension or not.

BTW, Pope John Paul says that he has done the Consecration. Self-appointed (but not necessarily qualified) analysts can produce as many words as they want in their arguments. I believe the Pope. Often the same people who disagree with the Pope on one thing also happen to disagree with him on lots of other things. Is there a connection? At any rate, the suspension stands and, as in all such pastoral decisions, it must be accepted 'with religious assent', i. e. obediently.

Fr G baited the Holy See for many years, almost begging for disciplinary action and all the attention that goes with it. He got what he wanted.

Epiphanygirl · Feb 11, 2005

When in doubt, look to the Holy See!! What the Vatican says trumps anything a ArchBishop or Priest say.
If we can't trust, or call into question, what the Pope says along with the Magsiterium we're in big trouble.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

For those devoted Our Lady of Fatima or need more information about Her:

http://www.fatima.org/

nyj · Feb 11, 2005

GregChant1545 said:
http://www.fatima.org/

This website gets a "Yellow" rating from Catholic Culture.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

nyj said:
This website gets a "Yellow" rating from Catholic Culture.

Yeah those are usually the best, because they don't fit the so-called 'modern' interprepretation of faith or life.

Makes me more devoted to it than ever. Thanks.

nyj · Feb 11, 2005

GregChant1545 said:
Yeah those are usually the best, because they don't fit the so-called 'modern' interprepretation of faith or life.

Makes me more devoted to it than ever. Thanks.

You're welcome. However Catholic Culture can be annoyingly "traditional" when it wants to. For instance, Dave Armstrongs site used to be "Yellow" as well because he linked to outside Protestant sources (which he then refuted). They've since changed that, and upgraded to him to Green.

I'm not sure a Yellow ranking is anything to be proud of however. The Jesuit website is Yellow as well. Do you think they fit your more traditional interpretation of faith or life?

Michelina · Feb 11, 2005

Here are some sites you can trust:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000626_m-fatima_en.html

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/

Here is the true Apostle of Fatima:

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2000May/rjfox100.htm

Here is the greatest Apostolate of Fatima in the US:

http://www.bluearmy.com/

Another:

http://www.fatimashrine.com/

The sites I posted are not owned by anyone suspended a divinis.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

nyj said:
You're welcome. However Catholic Culture can be annoyingly "traditional" when it wants to. For instance, Dave Armstrongs site used to be "Yellow" as well because he linked to outside Protestant sources (which he then refuted). They've since changed that, and upgraded to him to Green.

I'm not sure a Yellow ranking is anything to be proud of however. The Jesuit website is Yellow as well. Do you think they fit your more traditional interpretation of faith or life?

What I think is that catholicculture.org has its own agenda and is very inconsistent. And thats all I'll say on that.

nyj · Feb 11, 2005

GregChant1545 said:
What I think is that catholicculture.org has its own agenda and is very inconsistent. And thats all I'll say on that.

Fair enough.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

Michelina said:
The sites I posted are not owned by anyone suspended a divinis.

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are you when men reproach you, and
persecute you, and
speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you,
for my sake.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

A much better site, if you can read Italian, is associated with the group Communion and Liberation:

http://www.culturacattolica.it/

Michelina · Feb 11, 2005

GregChant1545 said:
A much better site, if you can read Italian, is associated with the group Communion and Liberation.

Excellent site. I saved it.

Can you direct me to the place on that site that deals with what we are discussing?

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

Michelina said:
Excellent site. I saved it.

Can you direct me to the place on that site that deals with what we are discussing?

Here is the english site for C&L associated with that Italian site. I'm not sure if they cover Fatima per se as much as they cover how to be a faithful Catholic in our current context.

http://www.clonline.org/FirstPage.htm

Michelina · Feb 11, 2005

Even better site! (Less work)

Are you associated with C&L? They're a great group.

Alexis OCA · Feb 11, 2005

Michelina said:
Even better site! (Less work)

Are you associated with C&L? They're a great group.

No. But I agree they are a treasure in this day and age.

Michelina · Feb 11, 2005

GregChant1545 said:
No. But I agree they are a treasure in this day and age.

I don't know if they're in the Big Apple, but they are just across the bridge in NJ.

Here's a Wanderer article on Fr. Nick.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/ngruner/wanderer.html

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