False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

Greengardener · Jan 25, 2020

Phil W said:
The twelve at Ephesus spoke in tongues. (Acts 19:6)

Hi Phil W. Isn't it fascinating that in all the examples of them speaking in other languages and speaking forth the word of God they were still so slow to take the message to the people of the other languages? But thankfully those who could hear it there heard the good news, and eventually, although through additional persecution and trouble, the gospel went further and further from Jerusalem. I'm so glad it did! May we take this to the very ends of the world, because these are the words of life!

Greengardener · Jan 25, 2020

friend of said:
What does everyone think about what Galatians 3:3 has to say on the subject?

Frankly, given the history of the Judiazers following around behind Paul, it sounds like Paul was expressing concern that they were shifting from the solid ground of following the written commandments as Jesus taught to following the traditions of the elders with their entanglements as a means to salvation. I tend to believe that God didn't change, and that Jesus taught the written law and told us to continue to live in it by showing us how it was meant to be instead of how it had become corrupted by the unrighteous leaders, so with that vantage, it looks to me like Paul was having the same problem. Paul was aware of the liberty we have in living within God's plan and he was aware of the confines of his Pharisee background. There is a pure and liberating gospel according to Paul, which is faith in Christ and an obedient life being led by the Holy Spirit to the end result that we are found to be the believing and obedient holy people God desires by living within what He taught, and there is the complicated religion of the Judiazers which exercised control over people, blinded them to the truth, and made them subject to an authority other than God's plan.

I'm not pushing my interpretation on anyone, just answering your question, but you are welcome to see if it fits as you read through both the Old and New Testaments in your Bible.

Greengardener · Jan 25, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
You mean like living in sin, as in a practicing homosexual, practicing liar, thief, a generally mean/hateful person, and so forth. We only need to strive to be good, something so basic we generally knew how to from childhood. Yet people want to complicate it for their own reasons, and the only reason I can think of is they want to sin, nothing else explains why they defend it as that do, even when they can see it doesn't hold water.

Planning to sin is a dead give away of being in a bad place sin wise, or always being up for sin if the opportunity arises. Then there is sin of temptation, we didn't plan to do it, and are against it, but it happened, then we repent and try again to do it no more, something that isn't good but repentance makes right with God.

Just a few of my thoughts

I used to think that way, Kenny, but then I had to face the fact that many of my temptations were skillfully planned inside my own mind... Yes, I repented!

Greengardener · Jan 25, 2020

A_Thinker said:
Do you realize how vague and inexact that is ?

What is the minimum ?

What frequency of sin is permissible ?

What is "serious" sin ? Do David's sin qualify ? Samson's ?

How serious was the sin of the priest and the Levite ... who walked past the injured man on the road to Jericho ?

According to the scriptures, God made it very plain. Sin ... is missing the mark ... of God's calling to perfection. Sin ... is the violation ... of God's Law.

Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, ... and come short of the glory of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And, according to Jesus, ... ALL of God's Law is based upon (2) commands ... that we LOVE GOD with all that we have, ... and that we LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR, ... even as we love ourselves. Upon these two ... is ALL of God's Law based.

Matthew 22

34 And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36 “Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37 Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And James said ... that if we break any measure of God's Law, ... it is as if we have broken ALL of it.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

So ... you see, the Holy Spirit is not given to perfect little angels. The Holy Spirit is bestowed to dirty little street urchins, BORN into the kingdom of God, ... but still learning and growing, ... until we reach the full measure of Christ. In effect, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to raise us up from our dirt ... and that requires getting One's hands a little dirty ....

Yes, and thank God He did! Appreciate your many thoughts on this thread, A Thinker.

expos4ever · Jan 25, 2020

To put one stake in the ground: Romans 2:6-7 clearly asserts that eternal life is granted based on how we live. The wording is clear, and Paul says similar things elsewhere.

Another stake: I think it is also clear that when Paul denies that the “works of the law” save, he is referring to the Law of Moses in particular- he is not contradicting what he writes in Romans 2:6-7.

Kenny'sID · Jan 25, 2020

Greengardener said:
I used to think that way, Kenny, but then I had to face the fact that many of my temptations were skillfully planned inside my own mind... Yes, I repented!

There were a number of comments there and not sure to which you refer? Think like what?

Either way, sincere repentance will fix us up every time so glad you did.

Romansthruphilemon · Jan 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
To put one stake in the ground: Romans 2:6-7 clearly asserts that eternal life is granted based on how we live. The wording is clear, and Paul says similar things elsewhere.

Another stake: I think it is also clear that when Paul denies that the “works of the law” save, he is referring to the Law of Moses in particular- he is not contradicting what he writes in Romans 2:6-7.

If that’s the case then no one will have eternal life.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Phil W · Jan 25, 2020

Greengardener said:
Hi Phil W. Isn't it fascinating that in all the examples of them speaking in other languages and speaking forth the word of God they were still so slow to take the message to the people of the other languages?

Who are "they"?
After the persecution brought on by Saul, the disciples went everywhere preaching the word of God; as written of in Acts 8:4.

But thankfully those who could hear it there heard the good news, and eventually, although through additional persecution and trouble, the gospel went further and further from Jerusalem. I'm so glad it did! May we take this to the very ends of the world, because these are the words of life!

Amen to that.

expos4ever · Jan 25, 2020

Romansthruphilemon said:
If that’s the case then no one will have eternal life.

But Paul says that eternal life is granted based on the quality of life. His words are clear and cannot be misunderstood:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Do you believe the Bible is inerrant? If so, what do you think Paul is saying here?

Note that he is not saying you need to be perfect; however, you certainly must "persist in doing good".

I will address the text you provided in a future post.

Kenny'sID · Jan 25, 2020

Romansthruphilemon said:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Who is they/their? Does the scripture you quoted refere to All humanity of a group of people?

expos4ever · Jan 25, 2020

Romansthruphilemon said:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Surely this text describes the state of an individual before they receive Christ. So this text in no way challenges the assertion that the Christian receives eternal life "by persistence in doing good", as clearly stated in Romans 2.

I should have been more clear in my last post: While in Romans 2 Paul clearly states that eternal life will be granted according to how we live, we know from other things Paul writes, not to mention things that Jesus says, that only believers have the possibility to be awarded such life.

Romansthruphilemon · Jan 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
But Paul says that eternal life is granted based on the quality of life. His words are clear and cannot be misunderstood:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Do you believe the Bible is inerrant? If so, what do you think Paul is saying here?

Note that he is not saying you need to be perfect; however, you certainly must "persist in doing good".

I will address the text you provided in a future post.

My point was you can't stop reading at Romans 2. As you keep going in Romans and throughout the rest of Paul's letters he continually shows that salvation is not of works and not of ourselves. I would say that in Romans 2:6,7 Paul is preaching law so we will know our sin and know that we need a savior. He can't be teaching this as a way to get saved because that doesn't match the other 99% of his message where he says over and over that salvation is a free gift. It's not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to his mercy. Its repeated over and over that it is all based on what Jesus has done and not by our works.

Kenny'sID · Jan 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
Surely this text describes the state of an individual before they receive Christ.

It has to be talking about that. Problem is, reading it as no one ever does, or ever will be righteous and such is very useful to OSAS. To them it means if no one is righteous, we don't have to worry about being righteous, we can sin as we will, non repentant, and still get to heaven. I mean what's the use if no one ever will be righteous? But the problem with that is, OSAS has to ignore so many verses that state or imply otherwise.

First clue, go through all the following and tell me Christians don't do those things, I know I do, or at least make serious attempt.

Romansthruphilemon said:
there is none that seeketh after God.

Romansthruphilemon said:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romansthruphilemon said:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now let's take the "No one doeth good" from the scripture above as example. Read the following scripture straight from Christ who tells us we must do good. The clue there is if we cannot do good, why does Christ tell us we must do good, and that if we do not, we will go to hell?:

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

And before anyone tosses the "you are trying to earn salvation with works, and that's bad" bomb, just know there is a difference between works salvation and simply being obedient to God because Christ demands it. Only faith can save us, but disobedience/falling away and such will surely take our salvation... I know because Christ says it right there.

And there are several other scriptures that state we must fear God, seek God, and do good...all the things that OSAS says we cannot do. So using that scripture as OSAS does, is just an excuse to latch a hold of easy salvation, where we can live in sin, and can never lose salvation. We can and we will lose salvation unless we do good and not do evil....again, it says it right there in John 5:28.

friend of · Jan 25, 2020

expos4ever said:
Surely this text describes the state of an individual before they receive Christ.

I agree. It says "There is no fear of God before their eyes"

So it can't be talking about believers because believers DO have fear of God before them.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 30, 2020

"Secure in One's Grievous Sin View of Salvation" is the popular wide gate belief today. Proponents of this belief will admit that they cannot overcome certain grievous sin in this life, as well. Unfortunately, in this view of "sin and salvation" there is no true fear of GOD, though.

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2020

friend of said:
I agree. It says "There is no fear of God before their eyes"

So it can't be talking about believers because believers DO have fear of God before them.

Bible Highlighter said:
"Secure in One's Grievous Sin View of Salvation" is the popular wide gate belief today. Proponents of this belief will admit that they cannot overcome certain grievous sin in this life, as well. Unfortunately, in this view of "sin and salvation" there is no true fear of GOD, though.

The fear of God you are supposed to have is in your own propensity and natural inclination to make and pass judgments on other people, especially about "salvation", etc, and especially "for sure" about salvation, etc...

So, you are both right, there really is no fear of God before God or in their eyes, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
The fear of God you are supposed to have is in your own propensity and natural inclination to make and pass judgments on other people, especially about "salvation", etc, and especially "for sure" about salvation, etc...

So, you are both right, there really is no fear of God before God or in their eyes, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

If you go around telling people that they have for sure lost their salvation because of this or that, etc, YOU CANNOT DO THAT, for to do so is having no fear of God, and is putting your own self in the place of God, etc...

It is wrong and very wrong, and you should be in very much great fear if you do, but many of you are just "not", etc...

So your right, there is not fear of God in and before them or in their eyes, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 30, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
If you go around telling people that they have for sure lost their salvation because of this or that, etc, YOU CANNOT DO THAT, for to do so is having no fear of God, and is putting your own self in the place of God, etc...

It is wrong and very wrong, and you should be in very much great fear if you do, but many of you are just "not", etc...

So your right, there is not fear of God in and before them or in their eyes, etc...

God Bless!

We, for our own part, must be giving everyone, and I mean everyone, the "benefit of the doubt", etc, and if we are not, we are doing wrong, and great wrong, and very, very bad, and much great "evil" or wrong, etc...

God Bless!

A_Thinker · Jan 30, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
The fear of God you are supposed to have is in your own propensity and natural inclination to make and pass judgments on other people, especially about "salvation", etc, and especially "for sure" about salvation, etc...

So, you are both right, there really is no fear of God before God or in their eyes, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

If I may tag on ...

Luke 18

9 To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like these other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13 But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’

14 I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

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