False Apostle Paul & 2 Peter 3:15-17

ananda · Oct 13, 2011

I've been reading Questioning Paul for some time now, and I agree with the author's conclusions thus far. I understand many Christians quote 2 Peter 3:15-17 in support of Paul; I'll quote the author's expanded translation of these verses to you for consideration:

Paulos, through the human wisdom that had been given to him, wrote to you. And even as in all epistles, inside they speak around this, using circular reasoning. Within them, that is to say, there are some things difficult to understand, and detrimental to understanding (duysnoetos), which the uneducated and ignorant, as well as those who are malleable will misinterpret and distort, also like the remaining inferior (leipo) writings (graphe), to the consequence of their own individual destruction and annihilation. You, therefore, beloved, knowing this in advance, be on your guard and keep away from this in order that you are not led astray, associating with the deception and delusion of lawlessness (being without the Torah), forsaking and falling away from one’s individual guarantee of safety and of becoming established upright. (ref)

Contrary to how most Christians use these verses (based on faulty or muddled translations hiding the truth), he is stating that in actuality:

Peter is warning Christians about the consequence of Pauline Doctrine—calling it deadly and destructive.

May Messiah commend us as He commended the assembly at Ephesus:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars (Rev 2:2)

Messiah's letters in Revelation 2-3 was for His seven churches of Asia which were true to Him. Remarkably, it is also interesting to note that Ephesus is in the ancient Roman province of Asia, of which Paul wrote, in his own words:

thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me (2Tim 1:15)

Jpark · Oct 13, 2011

You left out how John of Patmos was opposed to Paul.

interpreter · Oct 13, 2011

Jpark said:
You left out how John of Patmos was opposed to Paul.

OK I'll bite. Where does it say John was opposed to Paul? The only thing I can think of is John wrote that in the final judgement, we are judged according to our works. (Whereas Paul taught that we are saved entirely through grace and faith).

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

interpreter said:
... John wrote that in the final judgement, we are judged according to our works. (Whereas Paul taught that we are saved entirely through grace and faith).

What John said was correct: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12)

FirenWater · Oct 14, 2011

Heres Paul and the keeping of the commandments...

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Heres the faith of Christ which worketh by love...

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Heres the combination of the two (the faith of Christ) and the keeping of the commandments of God

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And the affirmation of maintaining good works...

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Incariol · Oct 14, 2011

http://questioningpaul.com/

It is a sign of the times when Christians think themselves justified in condemning holy Scripture and St. Paul as a heretic. What arrogance.

tackattack · Oct 14, 2011

And how do you reconcile your exegesis with 1 Corinthians

" 10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. "

I don't support your attempt and eigesis supporting your division seperating the good teachings of the apostles from the Holy Bible.

LaSpino3 · Oct 14, 2011

Natzarim wrote, "Contrary to how most Christians use these verses (based on faulty or muddled translations hiding the truth), he is stating that in actuality:"

Well it appears you have created for yourself a false dilemma. Why?

If translations are "muddled, and hiding the truth," as you claim, what books would you recommend in order to get to the truth? Moby Dick? War and peace? Shakespeare? What?

Are you a professor of languages? have you ever studied and interpreted the ancient manuscripts? Are you skilled in Hebrew, or Greek? What books have you written and published on these subject? if none I would refrain from making these false accusations. You digging yourself into a hole.

Phil LaSpino

tripletiger1200 · Oct 14, 2011

netzarim, how can we, as fallen sinful creatures, exist alongside a perfect God without an infinite amount of grace? If our salvation is based on our works, then where is the line for "Just good enough". Where is the value of faith in Jesus if we still have to strive to gain an inhuman level of perfection? What good does the Holy Spirit do us if we insist on trying to work to prove ourselves righteous before God? Do you think that if you try hard enough that God will see you as a righteous man?

interpreter · Oct 14, 2011

netzarim said:
What John said was correct: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12)

I was speaking of Rev. 20:12 which says,
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

FirenWater said:
Heres Paul and the keeping of the commandments... 1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Thank you for your response, FirenWater.

Paul seeks to negate the commandment of Elohim here - "circumcision is nothing"? Yet, in the same breath, refer to the commandments of Elohim? Circumcision is not nothing - Elohim commanded it as an everlasting covenant: "you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you ... My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant" (Gen 17:11,13). "It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law" (Psa 119:126). Amein!

No offense meant (as I do not believe the following to be Scripture, nor do I believe Paul has authority to pronounce new commandments, cf Deu 4:2, 12:32, Jos 1:7, Rev 22:18,19, Prov 30:6) - but if you are female and consider Paul's words to be Holy Scripture, then why are you in disobedience to 1Ti 2:11,12? "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"?

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

Incariol said:
It is a sign of the times when Christians think themselves justified in condemning holy Scripture and St. Paul as a heretic. What arrogance.

What makes Paul's writings "Holy Scripture"? Do you accept the Didache, or the Gospel of Thomas? or, the Gospel of Peter, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Book of Enoch? Which canon of Scripture do you follow, and why? The Protestant canon, the Catholic canon, the various Orthodox canons, Luther's canon, etc.? All of which disagree with one another?

Have you tested Paul according to Elohim's commandments (Deu 13, 18), and according to John's advice? "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (1Jo 4:1)

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

tackattack said:
And how do you reconcile your exegesis with 1 Corinthians ... I don't support your attempt and eigesis supporting your division seperating the good teachings of the apostles from the Holy Bible.

I am not sure what you are asking. What part of my post are you referring to in regards to your quotation of 1Cor 1? As a side note, have you noticed, in the verses you provided, how the mission given to Paul is different from the one given to the eleven authentic apostles?:

Paul: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1Cr 1:17) vs
Messiah to the authentic apostles: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them ... Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commandedyou" (Mt 28:19,20)

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

LaSpino3 said:
... what books would you recommend in order to get to the truth? Moby ? War and peace? Shakespeare? What?

We should start with the Torah. Then, the Prophets, and then the Writings. The three divisions of the "Old" Testament which Messiah recognized as "Scripture" (cf Mt 5:17, Mt 7:12, Mt 11:13, Mt 22:40, Lk 16:16, Lk 24:44, etc.)

Are you a professor of languages? have you ever studied and interpreted the ancient manuscripts? Are you skilled in Hebrew, or Greek? What books have you written and published on these subject? if none I would refrain from making these false accusations. You digging yourself into a hole.

Would the (authentic) apostles fulfill your requirements? I am searching for the truth, as Elohim and Messiah commanded me to do, to the best of my ability. I am not making false accusations; I am testing Paul in obedience to Elohim's commandment to do so (cf. Deu 13, 18, Prov 14:15, Jer 29:8, Mt 7;15, etc. also 1Jo 4:1)

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

tripletiger1200 said:
netzarim, how can we, as fallen sinful creatures, exist alongside a perfect God without an infinite amount of grace? If our salvation is based on our works, then where is the line for "Just good enough". Where is the value of faith in Jesus if we still have to strive to gain an inhuman level of perfection? What good does the Holy Spirit do us if we insist on trying to work to prove ourselves righteous before God? Do you think that if you try hard enough that God will see you as a righteous man?

I don't believe Elohim's and Messiah's Way is about grace versus works; this is a false dichotomy, which the different factions of mainstream Christianity would have us follow. However, its purpose is to be a distraction from the Truth.

His Truth and His Way, as I understand it, is actually about family and love, trust and faithfulness. We are accepted as part of His family when we love Him and obey Him as our Father, and as our Husband. If we truly Love Him then we will obey Him. If we do not obey Him, do we truly love Him?

Put in another way, at which point would you disown your children? When will they be considered "not part of your family"? It not about works, nor is it about grace. It is about family.

As evidence, I share these verses which I have previously compiled together:

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. Jn 14:6 If you love me, keep my commandments. Jn 14:15 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in His love. Jn 15:10 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. 1Jn 5:3 He that has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jn 14:21 If you continue in My word, then are you My disciples indeed; And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jn 8:31,32

Why do you call me, "Lord, Lord", and do not do the things which I say? Lk 6:46 Not every one that says to me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mt 7:21 Struggle hard to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the Master of the house is risen up, and has shut to the door, and you begin to stand outside, and to knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us"; and He shall answer and say to you, "I do not know you, or where you are from": Then shall you begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets." Lk 13:24-26 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in Your name have cast out devils? and in Your name done many wonderful works?" And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from me, you that work lawlessness." Mt 7:22-23 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Lk 13:27-28 Whosoever committeth sin violates also the law: for sin is the violation of the law. 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever abides in Him does not sin: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him. 1Jn 3:6 Repent you therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Ac 3:19

Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn 14:27 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 And he that keeps His commandments dwells in Him, and He in him. 1Jo 3:24 The mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and His righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His commandments to do them. Ps 103:17,18.

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

interpreter said:
I was speaking of Rev. 20:12 which says,
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books

Thank you interpreter That is indeed a good verse.

FirenWater · Oct 14, 2011

netzarim said:
Thank you for your response, FirenWater.

Paul seeks to negate the commandment of Elohim here - "circumcision is nothing"? Yet, in the same breath, refer to the commandments of Elohim? Circumcision is not nothing - Elohim commanded it as an everlasting covenant: "you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you ... My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant" (Gen 17:11,13). "It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law" (Psa 119:126). Amein!

Your welcome, just added to where Paul was accused of not mentioning works.

After catching your faith icon, I would encourage you to explore the tons of circumcision threads on CF. For me, they go nowhere, even in respects to the circumcision of the heart. But both get argued around here even though Paul acknowledges the heart (but neither does he deny his own on the eighth day) if he were to actually glory in His flesh.

Ive learned its a pretty fruitless discussion and I am not into wrangling. But I have recently decided to let men argue for their own penises what do I care? It dont concern me, Im not a male and none of my privates need a butcher knife to any covenant

Now the hearts a private too

No offense meant (as I do not believe the following to be Scripture, nor do I believe Paul has authority to pronounce new commandments, cf Deu 4:2, 12:32, Jos 1:7, Rev 22:18,19, Prov 30:6) - but if you are female and consider Paul's words to be Holy Scripture, then why are you in disobedience to 1Ti 2:11,12? "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"?

Certainly no offense taken. So you believe my typing to the OP (on an internet discussion forum) while silently (mind you) copy pasting words (not mine) is really me speaking (audibly) and (teaching) and so not learning in silence?

And likewise usurping authority (authente&#333 over THE man?

You might likewise believe I am not in my own home?

But maybe... this is much like the star ship enterprise? Where I am somehow transported into an orderly assembly? Could be, is there anything regarding internet discussion forums accessed from ones own home?

Should I wait for you to ask me if I have my head covered in your internet presence?

Ok, ok... I couldnt resist just a little of that, forgive me

IndieVisible · Oct 14, 2011

Incariol said:
It is a sign of the times when Christians think themselves justified in condemning holy Scripture and St. Paul as a heretic. What arrogance.

Actually, professing themselves wise they became fools comes to mind.

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

FirenWater said:
Your welcome, just added to where Paul was accused of not mentioning works.

Yes, I agree Paul mentioned he is pro works, yet, at the same time, talks about being against works of Torah in his other writings. As I quoted in my OP, is this not "circular reasoning" which is "difficult to understand, and detrimental to understanding" as written in 2Peter?

After catching your faith icon, I would encourage you to explore the tons of circumcision threads on CF. For me, they go nowhere, even in respects to the circumcision of the heart.

I believe the main source of all this dissension on that topic is due to the writings of no other than Paul himself.

So you believe my typing to the OP (on an internet discussion forum) while silently (mind you) copy pasting words (not mine) is really me speaking (audibly) and (teaching) and so not learning in silence? And likewise usurping authority (authente&#333 over THE man? You might likewise believe I am not in my own home?

I am the OP I am not sure I understand why the fact that this is an internet forum, or being in one's home has to do with Paul's commandment.

Should I wait for you to ask me if I have my head covered in your internet presence? Ok, ok... I couldnt resist just a little of that, forgive me

... and bearing a child too? For apparently that is necessary for your salvation, according to Paul (1Tim 2:15)

ananda · Oct 14, 2011

IndieVisible said:
Actually, professing themselves wise they became fools comes to mind.

Paul says "they became fools (moiros)" (Rom 1:22) vs. Messiah says "whosoever shall say, Thou fool (moros), shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mt 5:22)

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