Faith Presumptions and science

]RiSeN[ · Apr 25, 2005

PaladinValer said:
The Hebrew word translated as "good" doesn't mean anything moral, but something that is perfect. Whether we like it or not, what that is born, must die. That's a part of life.

So if God called creation 'good' and the hebrew word for good means perfect, how does evolution then fit? its hardly perfect, its constantly improving.

PaladinValer · Apr 25, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
since not everyone that was born has died i'm not sure this system can be called perfect. (not that i'd call that much death and destruction perfect, but that's using a different definition of perfect)

That makes no logical sense whatsoever. What is born, will die. That's a biological fact.

Fallen said:
So if God called creation 'good' and the hebrew word for good means perfect, how does evolution then fit? its hardly perfect, its constantly improving.

God creates a tree. Trees are ever growing...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new star. The star goes through burning its fuel and finally goes supernova and "dies"...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new soul. The soul is broken due to original sin...I guess God screwed up.

What makes it perfect is the fact that it fits the way God intended, not that it is everlasting. God didn't create life to be immortal, especially not humanity. Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. Why would God be worried about them eating of its fruit if they were already immortal? Makes no logical sense. Death is a part of the system of life; it is a part of God's Will that life is born to die.

SBG · Apr 26, 2005

PaladinValer said:
That makes no logical sense whatsoever. What is born, will die. That's a biological fact.

Oh, do you believe Elijah and Enoch didn't die?

PaladinValer said:
God creates a tree. Trees are ever growing...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new star. The star goes through burning its fuel and finally goes supernova and "dies"...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new soul. The soul is broken due to original sin...I guess God screwed up.

Uhm, and you are going to be a priest?

PaladinValer said:
What makes it perfect is the fact that it fits the way God intended, not that it is everlasting. God didn't create life to be immortal, especially not humanity. Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. Why would God be worried about them eating of its fruit if they were already immortal? Makes no logical sense. Death is a part of the system of life; it is a part of God's Will that life is born to die.

Where does the Bible say Adam and Eve never touched the fruit on the Tree of Life? You know all of you TE's say Adam and Eve didn't eat of the Tree of Life, yet the Bible doesn't say they didn't, it only eludes to the fact that they didn't. Yet, when YEC's say the Bible eludes to something or another, you sing a different tune. Consistency is really a difficult thing for a TE.

Can you show me where God said death is apart of His perfect creation in the Bible?

]RiSeN[ · Apr 26, 2005

PaladinValer said:
That makes no logical sense whatsoever. What is born, will die. That's a biological fact.

God creates a tree. Trees are ever growing...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new star. The star goes through burning its fuel and finally goes supernova and "dies"...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new soul. The soul is broken due to original sin...I guess God screwed up.

What makes it perfect is the fact that it fits the way God intended, not that it is everlasting. God didn't create life to be immortal, especially not humanity. Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. Why would God be worried about them eating of its fruit if they were already immortal? Makes no logical sense. Death is a part of the system of life; it is a part of God's Will that life is born to die.

He didnt want them to eat the tree of life after he had pronounced their fates, or it would make him a liar. Why does Jesus say we will have everlasting life if we follow him? We were made "in His image". Your gonna tell me God goes through all the trouble of creation just to make us die after a few years of living in it!?!?!!?THAT is illogical!!!

]RiSeN[ · Apr 26, 2005

PaladinValer said:
That makes no logical sense whatsoever. What is born, will die. That's a biological fact.

God creates a tree. Trees are ever growing...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new star. The star goes through burning its fuel and finally goes supernova and "dies"...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new soul. The soul is broken due to original sin...I guess God screwed up.

What makes it perfect is the fact that it fits the way God intended, not that it is everlasting. God didn't create life to be immortal, especially not humanity. Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. Why would God be worried about them eating of its fruit if they were already immortal? Makes no logical sense. Death is a part of the system of life; it is a part of God's Will that life is born to die.

You talk as though God is subject to His rules, laws, and creation. He created those in the first place. Jesus withered a fig tree in plain sight of his apostles, they were bewildered by this, when asked how, he told them they could move mountains with their faith. This is the same guy that walked on water during a raging storm. He fed thousands with a few fish and bread loaves, turned water into wine, BROUGHT PEOPLE BACK FROM DEATH. Wow are you ever belittling God.

]RiSeN[ · Apr 26, 2005

Thats the problem TE dont realize with evolution.

"No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to one and despise the other.You cannot slave for God and for science*."- Matthew 6:24

*- original word is riches

Oh and how did angels evolve in to being? Any thoughts on that?

Fineous_Reese · Apr 26, 2005

PaladinValer said:
That makes no logical sense whatsoever. What is born, will die. That's a biological fact.

i love logic but it is not my god, my God can do things that to me appear totally illogical. the scripture states there were some who went up to be with God without dying.

God creates a tree. Trees are ever growing...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new star. The star goes through burning its fuel and finally goes supernova and "dies"...I guess God screwed up.
God creates a new soul. The soul is broken due to original sin...I guess God screwed up.

you can take those up with God and tell Him he screwed up if you want, i'll just point to the scripture where Jesus died and defeated death. if death were part of life as God created it why would He kill His Son to be rid of it?

What makes it perfect is the fact that it fits the way God intended, not that it is everlasting. God didn't create life to be immortal, especially not humanity. Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. Why would God be worried about them eating of its fruit if they were already immortal? Makes no logical sense. Death is a part of the system of life; it is a part of God's Will that life is born to die.

the will of the god you describe is rather dark

Vance · Apr 26, 2005

The ways of God are not the ways of men.

My small children think that me not letting them have ice cream for breakfast is definitely not "good", but I know that rule is very good.

Do you think the difference between my understanding and my children's understanding of what is "good" is greater than the difference between our's and God's understanding?

Fineous_Reese · Apr 26, 2005

Vance said:
The ways of God are not the ways of men.

My small children think that me not letting them have ice cream for breakfast is definitely not "good", but I know that rule is very good.

Do you think the difference between my understanding and my children's understanding of what is "good" is greater than the difference between our's and God's understanding?

interesting analogy. death, decay, disease, violence, destruction, if these are good rules for your god then i can not see how we can also call him Holy and Righteous. how do you rationalize this?

Vance · Apr 26, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
interesting analogy. death, decay, disease, violence, destruction, if these are good rules for your god then i can not see how we can also call him Holy and Righteous. how do you rationalize this?

Death is not evil. None of those are evil. What is evil is SIN. Disobedience. Selfish denial of God.

These will ultimately bring the true punishment of the true death: separation from God. No physical pain, suffering or devastantion can even come close to the complete absence of all that is good in THAT death.

We are here on this earth but a fleeting moment compared to eternity. Any suffering or pain we experience here will seem as a mere pin prick, or even a feather's touch, compared to the eternal joy and bliss of True Life, which is full communion with God.

It is all relative. It is all a matter of perspective. God is SO much greater than we can imagine, that it is impossible for us to see the big picture. It is like me expecting my dog to be able to understand philosophy.

SBG · Apr 26, 2005

Vance said:
Death is not evil. None of those are evil. What is evil is SIN. Disobedience. Selfish denial of God.

These will ultimately bring the true punishment of the true death: separation from God. No physical pain, suffering or devastantion can even come close to the complete absence of all that is good in THAT death.

We are here on this earth but a fleeting moment compared to eternity. Any suffering or pain we experience here will seem as a mere pin prick, or even a feather's touch, compared to the eternal joy and bliss of True Life, which is full communion with God.

It is all relative. It is all a matter of perspective. God is SO much greater than we can imagine, that it is impossible for us to see the big picture. It is like me expecting my dog to be able to understand philosophy.

Ok. Jesus preached that Satan doesn't work against himself and neither does God.

So, with this simple teaching, how do you explain God working against Himself if death and disease are part of His perfect plan? You know, Lazarus, all those people Jesus healed, His own raising from the dead?

PaladinValer · Apr 26, 2005

SBG said:
Oh, do you believe Elijah and Enoch didn't die?

Those are exceptions, not the rule.

Uhm, and you are going to be a priest?

You've missed the entire point. Please read in context next time, not by taking each individual by itself.

You want God's Creation to be Perfect in the sense of nothing bad. But that isn't God's Will because of the Laws of Nature that He constructed allows things to not always be pink fluffy clouds and cute bunny rabbits. Stars "die," trees are never satisfied with their height (and they too eventually die out), human souls that are created by God are never perfect; not by His fault but by our own.

Where does the Bible say Adam and Eve never touched the fruit on the Tree of Life? You know all of you TE's say Adam and Eve didn't eat of the Tree of Life, yet the Bible doesn't say they didn't, it only eludes to the fact that they didn't.

You just answered your own question.

Yet, when YEC's say the Bible eludes to something or another, you sing a different tune. Consistency is really a difficult thing for a TE.

Because you are appealing to a false authority. The writers of the Bible knew nothing of science as we do today. In order to read the Bible correctly and faithfully, that fact must be in the back of you head constantly. Being willfully ignorant of it is no excuse.

Can you show me where God said death is apart of His perfect creation in the Bible?

It is implicit: Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. That implies that they were mortal to begin with.
This is also implicit; the fact that some species have such short lifespands that, even if you YECs are right, would have perished before the Fall ever occurred.

He didnt want them to eat the tree of life after he had pronounced their fates, or it would make him a liar.

That is a regardless point. The fact still remains that still had to partake from the Tree of Life, even before they disobeyed Him.

Why does Jesus say we will have everlasting life if we follow him?

Because that would make us perfect as He is.

We were made "in His image".

Not in terms of mortality, as implicitly proven. If they were, then God wouldn't have needed them to partake of the fruit from the Tree of Life; He would have "made" them to be immortal.

Your gonna tell me God goes through all the trouble of creation just to make us die after a few years of living in it!?!?!!?THAT is illogical!!!

He made the system of life, in which we are born, we grow, we wane, and we die, to which we return to the earth and the cycle repeats. It is called the "ecosystem" and it is a fact of the biology that God devised that the Earth be run by.

If you have a problem with this, I suggest asking God why He didn't just make us to be immortal.

You talk as though God is subject to His rules, laws, and creation. He created those in the first place.

Firstly, it might be a good idea to simply edit your posts to add more comments.

Secondly, God is not subject to them, but we are. The fact that we are is what the issue is, for we are talking about something that affects not God but mortal life: death.

Jesus withered a fig tree in plain sight of his apostles, they were bewildered by this, when asked how, he told them they could move mountains with their faith.

That's called a "hyperbole."

This is the same guy that walked on water during a raging storm.

Jesus wasn't just Man but God as well. We cannot do this, except through His Will, not by our own. Where and when was it that the last human being walked on water?

He fed thousands with a few fish and bread loaves,

This is called "sharing" and this story also utilized typical hyperbole too.

turned water into wine, BROUGHT PEOPLE BACK FROM DEATH.

Again, Jesus wasn't just Man but God.

Wow are you ever belittling God.

And you belittle me by insulting my intelligence because you simply assume what I believe first and act of your false assumptions. Next time, ask and learn before posting.

I do not belittle God by showing how folks assume that the ancients knew as we know today.

"No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to one and despise the other.You cannot slave for God and for science*."- Matthew 6:24

I forgive you.

Oh and how did angels evolve in to being? Any thoughts on that?

Is spite truly this necessary?

i love logic but it is not my god, my God can do things that to me appear totally illogical. the scripture states there were some who went up to be with God without dying.

Again, you've missed the point. We are subject; we are the subject of the question of death. Like it or not, God devised an ecosystem to which death is a part of. Without that ecosystem, life couldn't even exist. Death is just as much as a part of life as life in and of itself is.

the will of the god you describe is rather dark

Might I suggest then traversing the stars to try to find a world that runs differently? Of course, you'll never find it, but I'd wish you well in any case in your journey.

Like it or not, death is a part of life. That's part of God's design. Just because you find it "dark" doesn't mean it is evil nor wrong.

I have no fear of death; I have come to accept it as a part existence as that it is a part of Creation. There is no evidence within the Bible that says that it never was and the scientific evidence shows that death or the ending of things is a part of the natural order of things. These systems were begun by God. Take it up with Him if you wish it to be changed; I honestly wouldn't mind a few changes myself.

Edit: I should add that the belief of death as "evil" is very, very foreign to orthodox Christian theology.

SBG · Apr 26, 2005

PaladinValer said:
Those are exceptions, not the rule.

Always are. I must say I am rather surprised you take this part of the Bible literally. Very good.

PaladinValer said:
You've missed the entire point. Please read in context next time, not by taking each individual by itself.

Are you looking to become a priest, or did I misunderstand?

PaladinValer said:
You want God's Creation to be Perfect in the sense of nothing bad. But that isn't God's Will because of the Laws of Nature that He constructed allows things to not always be pink fluffy clouds and cute bunny rabbits. Stars "die," trees are never satisfied with their height (and they too eventually die out), human souls that are created by God are never perfect; not by His fault but by our own.

Really. God's Will before the fall of mankind was for a balance of evil and good? Interesting philosophy.

Can you prove death before a fall? I would love to see these verses that you believe support this theological view point.

PaladinValer said:
You just answered your own question.

And you missed my point.

PaladinValer said:
Because you are appealing to a false authority. The writers of the Bible knew nothing of science as we do today. In order to read the Bible correctly and faithfully, that fact must be in the back of you head constantly. Being willfully ignorant of it is no excuse.

Yes, you have told me many times that the Bible is false authority. Neither is being willfully ignorant of what God's Word actually says an excuse.

PaladinValer said:
It is implicit: Adam and Eve never touched the fruit from the Tree of Life. That implies that they were mortal to begin with.
This is also implicit; the fact that some species have such short lifespands that, even if you YECs are right, would have perished before the Fall ever occurred.

Really. Where does it say Adam and Eve were mortal as we know it today? Another theological view point that has no scriptural support.

PaladinValer said:
Edit: I should add that the belief of death as "evil" is very, very foreign to orthodox Christian theology.

Yeah, that is why the Bible says death is an enemy of God....

Ceris · Apr 26, 2005

Mod Hat On

Hi Everyone,

This thread has come to my attention recently, so I would like to quickly remind all of you about two things (Think of this as a bit of preemptive moderation):

1) Play nice. I'm sure all of you know the rules, but I'm just reminding you.

2) Allow time to cool down. Don't get so wrapped up in a debate that you start to get emotionally involved too much. Otherwise, you might take things a little too personally that were never meant to inflict harm towards you or others.

Thank you.

God Bless,
Ceris

Mod Hat Off

Delta One · Apr 27, 2005

Hi vance,

I just think that the YECs have made a since out of something that should be an if.

But God says that He made everything in six days in His infallible (as you pointed out) Word, the Bible. Since we Christians know that God was there and He doesn't lie, then we can say that what His Word says must be true. We now then need to discover how God made everything. This is the purpose of creation science. Whenever "science" says something that goes against the clear and authorative statements of the Bible, then we should not just mix them in with the Bible and try to justify that action by bending the Bible to fit, we should analyze the evidence critically and then explain how it is consistent with a literal view of the Bible if possible. In some circumstances, new evidence may destroy the old, e.g. heliocentric overtook geocentric view of our solar system. Once again, this is what creation science sets out to do by disproving evolutionism and showing at the same time how the evidence is consistent with the Bible's authorative Word.

But in the areas not mandated by a faith presumption, I use the word if instead. If God created by allowing a form of abiogenesis or If God created a literal Garden.

But this is the very area which requires a faith assumption because either way, it cannot be proven by science. When there is lack of evidence and it cannot be proven, an event must be taken by faith. Why then, do you take the side of a fallible man made theory of evolutionism over the Inspired Word of God that doesn't lie?

Delta One.

Vance · Apr 27, 2005

Delta, but there IS evidence, and very convincing evidence. It is NOT a case of there being nothing to give us a clue as to the HOW and WHEN God did all of the things He more generally and figuratively describes in Genesis.

The problem lies in the fact that you beg the very question in your first sentence. You say "But God says that he made everything in six days . . ." That is the very point. I don't think He DOES say this. I think that the text is meant to be read as a figurative rendition of what actually happened. Even Augustine agreed that it did not actually happen over six literal days, he took this as a literary presentation of what REALLY happened (which he thinks is that God created everything in an instant, but that is another issue).

The point raised in the OP is you have created a SINCE out of the idea of a literal six 24-hour days. You don't consider that this could be an incorrect interpretation, or you would discuss it as an IF. That is fine, and the point of this thread is not to dispute where that line should actually be drawn. It is to point out that just because TE's don't draw the line in the same place as you does not mean we don't have faith presumptions. We do, indeed, make the same type of faith presumptions you do, and will reject any statements, whether historical, scientific, logical, etc, that contradicts those presumptions. Many YEC's seem to think that TE's just look to science as the "be and end all" of every inquiry and let anything trump Scripture. This is just not true. It is just that we don't have the same "SINCE" categories you do. We don't say "since" God said He created in six days because we don't think He ever said that in a literal sense.

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