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Faith and works not that hard to figure out.

Kenny'sID

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'Where are these people (anywhere??) that think they are earning their salvation on their own without Christ, by their own works, without Christ?'

I've confronted them with the same question. They consistently speak of "Works Based", "Salvation by works alone", and they very often leave off the term faith, and it's just another deceitful trick that makes it appear we are salvation by works/obedience only oriented.

The fact is I've never once seen anyone claim works alone for salvation. They can make the deceitful remarks, for one, that's what it takes to convince others of an untruth, plus with the "do as we want" way of thinking, being deceitful towards others is not a concern.

I meant to add that when confronted about leaving the faith off and only mentioning works when referring to their adversary, they just don't reply....they know it's wrong.
 
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Kenny'sID

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LOL The disagreement was about amount of faith/works and you've now changed the argument to "trust" and pretend it's the same one we were discussing all along...tricky, and, yep, deceitful.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You forgot verse 2

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-2‬

I took the liberty of providing the definition of the Greek word used for “takes away” shown below. Notice the highlighted portion in bold letters refers to something that is attached. The branch is attached to the vine. Being removed or taken away from Christ does not result in salvation.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease


Grammar:

a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare נָשָׂא) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
 
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Cis.jd

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What makes some believers grow faster than others and mature in Christ faster than others?
hmm. You got me there, i don't know if i have an answer to that! Maybe you can enlighten me on how I can tell if someone actually grew or matured in Christ faster than someone else? For example, how can I I know who is the better believer between Redleghunter and Gilbert Deya?

Are you serious?
Yes, so now tell me why you don't believe Hitler or any of the Nazi's had the same faith.. also Adolf Eichmann said "i did this all for God" before he was executed. What is the difference between your faith and his especially since the end result is supposed to be the same?

Your tree analogy is poor because if a tree that is supposed to give fruit is incapable of it (or bad fruit), then it's useless and will be taken out by the farmer. Your analogy is more on point to my argument.

Also, if you start reading James 2:14 and continue on till the end it does tell you through this "hypothetical person". James even references Abraham as an example, claiming how his righteousness was defined/shown for what he did.


They are being judged to determine if they are going to be saved or thrown in the lake of fire (v15). The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. I don't see why you are trying use Matt 23:14 to answer that.

Who said these many people had faith in Jesus? Mental assent belief joined with trusting in works for salvation is not saving faith. Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved and we are saved through faith. Do the math.

That verse says so. that is why you see those people going "lord lord, have we not prophesied your name and in your name cast out demons.. (Mathew 7:22)" in short, they where saying "we had faith"... his rejection of them was based on their works (you workers of lawlessness!’).
 
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Yarddog

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Well Paul says different in multiple epistles.

We are justified apart from works. If you are making a stipulation within the Mosaic Law then let’s hear it.
Paul speaks against attempting justification by "works of the Law". Faith apart from the Law does not mean faith alone, unless your definition of faith means doing the works which Jesus called believers to follow.
 
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redleghunter

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If faith is not the gift and you attribute “not of yourselves” to grace that would mean Paul is teaching we cannot boast Grace is not of ourselves. Makes absolutely no sense as Ephesians 2 already explained God’s action of saving us through Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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I didn't say that it wasn't a gift but faith is still a work.
Work in what way. I agree we are not comatose in faith. As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.
 
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Yarddog

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You are confusing the essence of faith with the evidence or fruit of faith.
No, I'm not. People just seem to confuse what a work is and the many different kinds. The word isn't
So what kind of work is faith
It is the work of God's Holy Spirit. Man cannot begin the believe without this work. Nothing that we do on our own works. The only real works that lead to salvation are works of God's Spirit within man. These works must be there.
 
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Cis.jd

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As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.


20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- James 2:20-24

edit: had to change to NIV because the translations sounds more appropriate. sadly, i know that no matter how straight-forward this verse is, there will still be creative writing trying to change it's context.
 
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Danthemailman

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No mistake. I already summed it up for you in posts #223 and #229. AT Robertson nailed it!
 
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Danthemailman

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LOL The disagreement was about amount of faith/works and you've now changed the argument to "trust" and pretend it's the same one we were discussing all along...tricky, and, yep, deceitful.
No trickery or deceit on my part. I've been straightforward with you the whole time. Faith in Christ for salvation is trusting in Christ for salvation. Trusting 100% in Christ for salvation to be exact. Not hard to understand. Just hard for people who trust in works for salvation to ACCEPT.
 
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Danthemailman

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Yarddog

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Work in what way. I agree we are not comatose in faith. As Abraham believed God and it was reckoned as righteousness, he still picked up camp and moved to the Promised Land.
And Abraham's works to receive God's promise weren't accomplished until he obeyed God's command to sacrifice Isaac.

Genesis 22
12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing * to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because * you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore *; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because * you have obeyed My voice."

Abraham was granted righteousness through believing but there was still works to do. None of which could have been accomplished without God's Spirit to lead him.
 
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redleghunter

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I see you slipped in there obedience before faith. How does one live obedient to Christ if they are not a new creation.

So my point stands. You are trying to interpret Romans 1-5 with Romans 6-8.

That’s not how Paul presents his dissertation and why chapters 1-5 come before the remainder of the epistle.
 
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redleghunter

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I continue to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
Very important. If not all is done is pit verses against verses creating one’s own contradiction.
 
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redleghunter

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Did that branch abide in Christ? No.
 
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