Explanation for the Biblical flood and acceptance of the Bible doctrine on origins

GenemZ · Feb 18, 2023

Diamond7 said:
"It" stand contrary to the traditions of man. Also modern revisionism is contrary to History and Science.

Let's stick to chapter and verse before this gets buried in boredom, please.

ozso · Feb 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
How nice that the legal code of Ex 20:11 affirms the literal 7 day week of Genesis 2:1-3 and sets it on par with the 7 day week at Sinai.

Is this really about promoting Sabbatarianism?

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
How nice that the legal code of Ex 20:11 affirms the literal 7 day week of Genesis 2:1-3 and sets it on par with the 7 day week at Sinai.

(some folks might choose to ignore all the details in Ex 20:11 because it is found in the Sabbath commandment and so needs to be ignored. This reference above is however - about the detail of the 7 day week of Gen 2:1-3 as referenced in non-symbolic legal code of Ex 20:11.. which of course some will find "inconvenient")

That removes all confusion that critics sometimes try to insert into the text.

MMXX said:
Is this really about promoting Sabbatarianism?

note has been added to the OP for those who find it "inconvenient" to notice details about the literal 7 day week - if it is somehow related to the Sabbath commandment.

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2023

Diamond7 said:
Noah's literal flood was local or the Bible uses the word: "Adamah" which means Eden. The plants and animals that Noah saved were domesticated. All the plants and animals in Eden.

A "flood in Eden" and nowhere else on planet Earth - could not be reconciled with the Bible details in Gen 6 and Gen 7 - as read the text.

Gen 6 details that would need to get edited/down-sized

11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for humanity had corrupted its way upon the earth.

...

13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of humanity has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of people; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.

17 Now behold, I Myself am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which there is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds according to their kind, and of the animals according to their kind, of every crawling thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.

The idea that birds cannot escape a local flood so then at least 2 of each kind of bird needs to come into the ark lest birds perish from the Earth - is pretty convoluted logic to insert into the text.

Gen 7 details that would need to get downsized/edited

2 You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; and two of the animals that are not clean, a male and his female; 3 also of the birds of the sky, seven pairs, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and I will wipe out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.

8 Of clean animals and animals that are not clean and birds and everything that crawls on the ground,

14 they and every animal according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kind, and every crawling thing that crawls on the earth according to its kind, and every bird according to its kind, all sorts of birds. 15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. 16 Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the Lord closed the door behind him.

and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. 18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 And the water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. 23 So He wiped out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from mankind to animals, to crawling things, and the birds of the sky, and they were wiped out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark

Clearly the newly freed slaves gathered at Sinai were not about to insert the idea of "local flood' into Moses' text at that point. We probably all agree on this point.

The idea that Noah builds such a huge structure to just house his own private farm animals - but then oddly enough - only takes 2 pairs of each kind of unclean and 7 pairs of the clean animals on his farm - is also going to result in some pretty tortured logic inserted into the text.

Diamond72 · Feb 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
a flood in Eden" and nowhere else on planet Earth

Noah's flood was in Eden, the Tigris, and Euphrates river valleys, ancient Mesopotamia.

In the Bible, real people are sometimes involved in both literal and allegorical events or stories. The difference between the two is in how they are intended to be interpreted.

In a literal story in the Bible, the events described are meant to be taken as factual historical events that actually happened to real people.

In an allegorical story in the Bible, real people may still be involved, but the events or characters are meant to be understood as symbols or metaphors for something else.

The difference between literal and allegorical stories in the Bible is in how they are intended to be interpreted. Literal stories are meant to be taken as factual accounts of real historical events, while allegorical stories use symbolic characters or events to represent larger ideas or concepts.

BobRyan said:
The idea that Noah builds such a huge structure to just house his own private farm animals

The world that Noah saved, our Biology book calls a biodiverse ecosystem. Noah was a food producer and if he had not saved civilization the world would have gone back to being hunter gathers. People think the hunter-gathers and the wild plants and animals perished in Noah's flood, but that is not the case.

There was an extinction like that around 12 to 14,000 years ago at the end of the ice age. That was when woolly mammoths and saber tooth tigers went extinct. That is more in line with a worldwide flood. If you talk to the professors at the universities in Jerusalem with degrees in Botney you will find that all the wild plants are still around and have not totally vanished. Even though they have evolved into cultivated plants.

There is overwhelming evidence that Noah's flood was not a worldwide flood and we have to deal with that as best we can to try to explain the story as best we can with what we have to work with. For a lot of people, they will not understand until they get to heaven and then we can learn about all of this there. The Bible will be explained to us in a way we can all understand.

I can go through your questions step by step and write a whole book on this if you want. I have studied it a lot for well over 50 years now. But we still have a lot to learn about all of this.

Diamond72 · Feb 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of humanity has come before Me

The Hebrew word for humanity: "bāśār" (בָּשָׂר) can have a few different meanings depending on the context in which it is used. Theistic evolutionists believe Food producers: Adam and Eve evolved from the food gathers that came before them.

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2023

Diamond7 said:
The Hebrew word for humanity: "bāśār" (בָּשָׂר) can have a few different meanings depending on the context in which it is used. Theistic evolutionists believe Food producers: Adam and Eve evolved from the food gathers that came before them.

I do agree that Hebrew is a high-context language - but it is pretty hard to insert "Adam and Eve evolved from the food gathers that came before them" and suggest that the newly freed slaves at Sinai were "reading that into the text"

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2023

Diamond7 said:
The world that Noah saved, our Biology book calls a biodiverse ecosystem. Noah was a food producer and if he had not saved civilization the world would have gone back to being hunter gathers.

Why would a local flood after 1600 years of civilization that spread through all the earth -- have ended it all - save for one farm preserved on the boat? and why save only two of each farm animal - if in fact he built such a huge ship.

Lots of "doesnt fit the text" when we look at these details actually in the 2 chapters #24

Diamond72 · Feb 19, 2023

BobRyan said:
Why would a local flood after 1600 years of civilization that spread through all the earth -- have ended it all

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

BobRyan said:
why save only two of each farm animal

Genesis 7:2
You are to take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate; a pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate;

The seven pairs are necessary to maintain genetic diversity. They needed to sacrifice animals that were pure without spots, blemishes, or wrinkles.

A possible explanation to include "unclean" animals was to preserve biodiversity and ecological balance after the Flood.

ozso · Feb 20, 2023

BobRyan said:
note has been added to the OP for those who find it "inconvenient" to notice details about the literal 7 day week - if it is somehow related to the Sabbath commandment.

All I can conclude from that unclear answer is that, yes this really is just another thread to promote seventh-day-adventism/sabbitarianism.

Those kinds of threads are always started on a Friday.

I'm not even objecting or complaining. I just wish you'd be more transparent regarding imtention.

.Jeremiah. · Feb 20, 2023

BobRyan said:
It is pretty normal to find that people who accept God's account for that history in the Bible never come up with "bible objections".

Objections to things like
1. The virgin birth
2. the literal resurrection of Christ
3. The miracles of Christ
4. The flood account
5. The creation account in Gen 1-2 and also in Ex 20:11

never come from the Bible. They are always something external to the Bible with a very different world view trying to "adjust" the Bible account - very often "by a lot".

Those who embrace the historic account we find in scripture will love that video -- others probably won't watch ... each one has free will and can choose as they wish.

The scriptures cannot object to themselves. Every word is true, as the Lord intended. Not as man intends.

Fortunately, the Word is NOT a history book, a science book, a biology book, a math book, etc. A history book will teach you history, a science book will teach science, etc.

But the Word is a BEAUTIFUL and wonderful guidebook to life. The Lord says “I have come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly“.

Pretty cool.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

.Jeremiah. said:
The scriptures cannot object to themselves. Every word is true, as the Lord intended. Not as man intends.

Fortunately, the Word is NOT a history book, a science book, a biology book, a math book, etc. A history book will teach you history, a science book will teach science, etc.

But the Word is a BEAUTIFUL and wonderful guidebook to life. The Lord says “I have come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly“.

Pretty cool.

The Bible is not limited to reporting historic facts - it also teaches doctrine, it teaches the gospel. But it does not do that by 'making stuff up' about what happened in the past.

as 1 Cor 10 reminds us - we were told in scripture about real history - to be guided by it.

So when in legal code of Ex 20:11 God points to Gen 2:1-3 as historic fact - we can trust Him.

=====================

The Bible is not a science text informing the read how he too can do what God did exactly as God did it in things like
1. The virgin birth
2. the literal resurrection of Christ
3. The miracles of Christ
4. The flood account
5. The creation account in Gen 1-2 and also in Ex 20:11

But that does not mean those events never happened in real history. Just because we don't have the science to be God - does not mean there is no God.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

MMXX said:
All I can conclude from that unclear answer is that, yes this really is just another thread to promote seventh-day-adventism/sabbitarianism.

Reading comprehension 101 for Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3 allows us to "look at the details" in the text even if we are not Messianic Jews, or Seventh-day Adventists, or members of the Seventh-day Baptist groups or members of the many sunday-keeping groups that affirm the exact SAME details - such as we find in -

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy

==================

As you point out there is a pretty impressive ability on the part of some - to skim past all the details in the thread/discussion and just try and make some negative statement. But I have never challenged that fact that such skills exist. That is not the topic of this thread.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

Diamond7 said:
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 7:2
You are to take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate; a pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate;

The seven pairs are necessary to maintain genetic diversity. They needed to sacrifice animals that were pure without spots, blemishes, or wrinkles.

A possible explanation to include "unclean" animals was to preserve biodiversity and ecological balance after the Flood.

As already stated - the size given for the ark is far to big too just house one farm where only 7 pairs of sheep, and 7 pairs of cows, and 2 pairs of horses etc are taken from the entire farm -

The story works as written but if we try the downsize you suggest -- many things do not fit. Including the idea that birds could not survive a local flood and if they were not spared then no more of that kind of bird would exist.

In this post #24 I highlighted in red, and or underline, and or in bold - the details that cannot be downsized into the form you need in the way you re-position the chapters.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

GenemZ said:
Maybe the remains (by today's standards) appear much younger than we might assume. After all? If someone would live to be 900 years old? At age 700? His remains may appear to be like that of a 30 year old today....

Adam at day one - would appear as a 25 year old fully functional.

if the question is how forensic science would evaluate a 900 year old man that had died thousands of years ago -- I don't know of any measure they have today that would tell them how old that person was

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

Diamond7 said:
There are things that science can not prove. Science can not disprove them also. For example the idea that people lived to be 1000 years before Noah's flood. It is possible that aging is a disease and it is possible that people did live longer back then. We have never found the remains of a person who has aged past the age of 30. So the evidence does indicate that the Bible is true in this regard.

The evidence is not there - because we have no tools to measure it and we have no access to a corpse of a person who had lived 900 years.

BobRyan · Feb 20, 2023

GenemZ said:
So? If Jeremiah was quoting such a terrible judgment as you claimed?

Yet? Even so to that?

You are the one that brought up Jer 4 -- as if it referred to a judgment in the past. I simply point out that with the ruined cities etc - it points to the future not the past.

On day 1 - God creates light and on day 2 - our atmosphere, apparently on plants because they don't show up on dry land until day 3..

So that is not the Jer 4 condition of ruined cities and no humans - because he says nothing about having no atmosphere, no sun, no moon, no dry land , no plants no fish etc in Jer 4.

Diamond72 · Feb 20, 2023

BobRyan said:
As already stated - the size given for the ark is far to big too just house one farm where only 7 pairs of sheep, and 7 pairs of cows, and 2 pairs of horses etc are taken from the entire farm -

I just figure God knew what he was doing. No reason for me to question Him on that.

GenemZ · Feb 20, 2023

BobRyan said:
You are the one that brought up Jer 4 -- as if it referred to a judgment in the past. I simply point out that with the ruined cities etc - it points to the future not the past.

On day 1 - God creates light and on day 2 - our atmosphere, apparently on plants because they don't show up on dry land until day 3..

So that is not the Jer 4 condition of ruined cities and no humans - because he says nothing about having no atmosphere, no sun, no moon, no dry land , no plants no fish etc in Jer 4.

Jeremiah 4:23 in the Hebrew is a direct reference to the same Hebrew found in Genesis 1:2. Genesis and Jeremiah are the ony two places in the Hebrew text where tohu wa bohu is to be found! Utter destruction in God's judgment is what Jeremiah used it for. You need to know that.

God did not create light on Day One. He was always being the light. God is light ( 1 John 1:5).
It was on Day 4 that God first caused the sun and stars to bear light.

God is light. Lucifer was called Lucifer because he was created as a great light bearer. The "Morning stars" were also light bearers. In that sense, those unique angels were created in God's image. Regular angels were called 'sons of God."

Diamond72 · Feb 20, 2023

BobRyan said:
The evidence is not there - because we have no tools to measure it and we have no access to a corpse of a person who had lived 900 years.

Bryan Sykes extracted DNA from the tooth of Chedder man who lived 9,000 years ago.

Explanation for the Biblical flood and acceptance of the Bible doctrine on origins

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