Explaining Mystical Experience

twin1954 said:

There is a difference between the mystical and mysticism. We are constantly in the mystical when we deal with spiritual things but mysticism focuses on the experience rather than on the Word. That is why mysticism is dangerous.

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It is dangerous if what you say is what one does . But when one goes to The Father in the name of the Son for understanding of the word then that which is generally considered the mystical is not dangerous. Of course this "is" if one is truly accessing God the Father and not someone or something else . Because there are all kinds of minds out there that one can access if one is not careful.

twin1954 said:

There is a difference between the mystical and mysticism. We are constantly in the mystical when we deal with spiritual things but mysticism focuses on the experience rather than on the Word. That is why mysticism is dangerous.

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Again, nonsense.

Mysticism focusses 100% on God. The 'experience' is totally irrelevant.

When you pray, do you focus on the experience, or on God? Same thing.

was ramblin'

I'm not sure where I stand on this. I know this isnt a charismatic thread - but seems to be leaning that way. Was once a time where I defended the contuationist stand vehemently. Have done so in the SR forums - look a few years back you will find it. Now a days my tune is changing I suppose. MacArthurs conference on this last year swayed me quite a bit. I still need to read the book he wrote on this. Will get to it eventually.

Mystical "christians" crack me up. So wacky.

twin1954 said:

Peter seems to believe it is the fulfillment of Joel 2;

(Act 2:14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

(Act 2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

(Act 2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

(Act 2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

As for the gifts, I recognize the difference but there is a definite connection in how the gifts are abused and how mysticism influences.

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Whoops. My mistake. I have no clue what I was thinking about.

JM said:

When I first believed and was sorting out my theology I read The Cloud of Unknowing and practice centering prayer. Soon after I did have a few experiences that I cannot explain. How do you explain Christian mysticism or mystical Christian experience? Why is mysticism chiefly found in Romanism and the Eastern Orthodox denomination?


Thanks,


jm

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Hi,

It looks like I won't be the only mystic here, nor the only old person. To me, there is totally no good word for God talking to you in any way.

Mysticism for me means, that all things spiritual can talk to me, like another person may have said, but some things that are spirits, I and no one else wants them to talk to us.

The Bible is my best tool for making sure that I only listen to what God tells me to, and the rewards are, only God talks to me now, for the most part.

Centering prayer does still scare me, and I only did it once. A Franciscan who is also an Anglican came on line and told me, that it is not evil.

Still it will take me some time, to handle that. But, what happened there, was really not outside of what I am actually going through, but I have always denied that I was a mystic. Apparently that is not true. I am one.

And I had a couple of really bad bad bad experiences, before I found out, by proof no less, that the Bible is Real and therefore God is Real. I am telling you this, because before God was known to me to be Real, some of the things I had to deal with on what people generally call a mystical level, were very painful. Since God that is all okay.

To me now, mysticism is that spirits and God can talk to you, in visions and feelings and in thoughts. The work is in asking God to do all the talking, usually by praying.

Argh! There is so much I can say, but one thing God communicating with a person is not. It is not for our benefit, it is for others. That is at least the main function of this in my life and in the lives of others.

For instance, I saw a woman today who God used me to tell her something. And today she is amazing compared to several years ago, when she was going through the motions, but had nothing confirming her faith.

What God did to and with me, had me in front of a group of people telling them, What God The Father was doing, where He was, while they were praying, but. But, the way it happened worked for her, and at the time, I had no idea it was for her.

For six episodes prior to that incident, I knew precisely where God The Father was, Jesus was, The Holy Spirit was and I also put the Virgin Mary in a certain place also. She is the only one I placed, and it is because the sensations of them is overpowering compared to her.

On the day, I was to deliver that to a group of people, totally not knowing, God changed the after service routine, which I had memorized by that time. I struggled to see what He was doing then. Slowly I changed my position in church. Then when they finished praying, I bounded up as though pushed by angels or The Holy Spirit, who I had just asked. I asked if He wanted me to say anything to them, about what I was seeing.

Of all things surprising, but not with God, another Christian Mystic is there. As I start talking, she interrupts me to tell the group basically that Miss Nut Job, is not so nuts after all and fits totally the profile for ones that God does this too, normally.

When she finished I told them what I came over for, but I did not know why I was there. Before I left, there was one woman with her mouth open staring at the other mystic. I remembered how bored and not filled with the Spirit that she was, but went though the motions anyway. It was then, that I knew this was for her.

Of course, when God uses me, I learn much.

I don't really know how to describe mysticism. I have a relationship with God, that should be fact. It is partially on faith. When my faith fails or I need a boost, God intervenes.

I hate centering prayer. I refuse to do anything, that is in my opinion, like eastern meditation, but I am not always right about these things, like that Franciscan Anglican told me one day.

Somehow I got into a centering prayer thing, that took me forever to come out of. It is because I saw my actual relationship with God in there. And that is what they said it was for. They did not say one could command. I did not do it, except I stumbled into the group and I was not ever going to do it again, as it seemed too Eastern Mystical to me of the Pagan Variety. Yet, as I was there, my guy, and I were there, and it was totally my faith relationship with God, but also a lot more than faith also.

But it still scares me a little, and I don't know if I will ever do it again, but I might.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

GQ Chris said:

Mystical "christians" crack me up. So wacky.

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All Christians are mystical if they pray.

Nothing wacky; perfectly mundane and ordinary.

Catherineanne said:

All Christians are mystical if they pray.

Nothing wacky; perfectly mundane and ordinary.

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I wasn't talking about prayer.

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,

It looks like I won't be the only mystic here, nor the only old person. To me, there is totally no good word for God talking to you in any way.

Mysticism for me means, that all things spiritual can talk to me, like another person may have said, but some things that are spirits, I and no one else wants them to talk to us.

The Bible is my best tool for making sure that I only listen to what God tells me to, and the rewards are, only God talks to me now, for the most part.

Centering prayer does still scare me, and I only did it once. A Franciscan who is also an Anglican came on line and told me, that it is not evil.

Still it will take me some time, to handle that. But, what happened there, was really not outside of what I am actually going through, but I have always denied that I was a mystic. Apparently that is not true. I am one.

And I had a couple of really bad bad bad experiences, before I found out, by proof no less, that the Bible is Real and therefore God is Real. I am telling you this, because before God was known to me to be Real, some of the things I had to deal with on what people generally call a mystical level, were very painful. Since God that is all okay.

To me now, mysticism is that spirits and God can talk to you, in visions and feelings and in thoughts. The work is in asking God to do all the talking, usually by praying.

Argh! There is so much I can say, but one thing God communicating with a person is not. It is not for our benefit, it is for others. That is at least the main function of this in my life and in the lives of others.

For instance, I saw a woman today who God used me to tell her something. And today she is amazing compared to several years ago, when she was going through the motions, but had nothing confirming her faith.

What God did to and with me, had me in front of a group of people telling them, What God The Father was doing, where He was, while they were praying, but. But, the way it happened worked for her, and at the time, I had no idea it was for her.

For six episodes prior to that incident, I knew precisely where God The Father was, Jesus was, The Holy Spirit was and I also put the Virgin Mary in a certain place also. She is the only one I placed, and it is because the sensations of them is overpowering compared to her.

On the day, I was to deliver that to a group of people, totally not knowing, God changed the after service routine, which I had memorized by that time. I struggled to see what He was doing then. Slowly I changed my position in church. Then when they finished praying, I bounded up as though pushed by angels or The Holy Spirit, who I had just asked. I asked if He wanted me to say anything to them, about what I was seeing.

Of all things surprising, but not with God, another Christian Mystic is there. As I start talking, she interrupts me to tell the group basically that Miss Nut Job, is not so nuts after all and fits totally the profile for ones that God does this too, normally.

When she finished I told them what I came over for, but I did not know why I was there. Before I left, there was one woman with her mouth open staring at the other mystic. I remembered how bored and not filled with the Spirit that she was, but went though the motions anyway. It was then, that I knew this was for her.

Of course, when God uses me, I learn much.

I don't really know how to describe mysticism. I have a relationship with God, that should be fact. It is partially on faith. When my faith fails or I need a boost, God intervenes.

I hate centering prayer. I refuse to do anything, that is in my opinion, like eastern meditation, but I am not always right about these things, like that Franciscan Anglican told me one day.

Somehow I got into a centering prayer thing, that took me forever to come out of. It is because I saw my actual relationship with God in there. And that is what they said it was for. They did not say one could command. I did not do it, except I stumbled into the group and I was not ever going to do it again, as it seemed too Eastern Mystical to me of the Pagan Variety. Yet, as I was there, my guy, and I were there, and it was totally my faith relationship with God, but also a lot more than faith also.

But it still scares me a little, and I don't know if I will ever do it again, but I might.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

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The mystical can take one a lot of different places and the word mystic means a lot of different things to a lot of different folks. So one needs to define themselves as a mystic, which is why the word Christian is used in conjuction with the word mystic. And only another mystic can truly understand the mystic experience that another mystic is talking about because you have to have some experience with it to understand it. A Christian mystic explores through meditative prayer (go to your closet and pray) getting to know the Father personally/one on one through Christ Jesus. Other kinds of mystics explore other things that have nothing to do with the Father or Christ Jesus. As a Christian mystic based on my experience one needs to fellowship with other Christians, one needs to read and have at least a basic understanding of what is in Christian Holy Scripture, and one needs to spend some time in meditative prayer in the name of Christ Jesus. These three things will bring one into a close personal relationship with the, "Our Farther that is in Heaven. Blessed be His name." And the meditative prayer part is the Christian mystical part. And the more time that one spends in meditative prayer that is "in the name of Christ Jesus" ("Only through Me can you know the Father.") the more one will understand the Christian mystic experience.

tucker58 said:

The mystical can take one a lot of different places and the word mystic means a lot of different things to a lot of different folks. So one needs to define themselves as a mystic, which is why the word Christian is used in conjuction with the word mystic. And only another mystic can truly understand the mystic experience that another mystic is talking about because you have to have some experience with it to understand it. A Christian mystic explores through meditative prayer (go to your closet and pray) getting to know the Father personally/one on one through Christ Jesus. Other kinds of mystics explore other things that have nothing to do with the Father or Christ Jesus. As a Christian mystic based on my experience one needs to fellowship with other Christians, one needs to read and have at least a basic understanding of what is in Christian Holy Scripture, and one needs to spend some time in meditative prayer in the name of Christ Jesus. These three things will bring one into a close personal relationship with the, "Our Farther that is in Heaven. Blessed be His name." And the meditative prayer part is the Christian mystical part. And the more time that one spends in meditative prayer that is "in the name of Christ Jesus" ("Only through Me can you know the Father.") the more one will understand the Christian mystic experience.

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Hi,

Okay yes, but with some slight additions, and one important removal.

The important removal is, I cannot get anyone to agree on what being a Christian mystic is. Therefore, I, I have no good word for my form of mysticism or that of others, rather it is a set of words, that only get closer.

What you have put above, is so close to the Chrisitian mystic experience, again using an approximation for God talking to a person through The Holy Spirit or by any method He so chooses, that it seems as though you are a msytic or know of them.

One interesting point, you bring out and remind me of now.

And only another mystic can truly understand the mystic experience that another mystic is talking about because you have to have some experience with it to understand it.

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After I came back from my first successful calling from God on a faith plus item, in which I was given a lot of things from God but at the request of Mary, in gift form to me, somebody asked me, if anything happened to me.

I responded with. Yes. Yes something did happen to me. He then proceeds to tell me about his trip to Jerusalem, on a bus. I saw, what he saw, in parts of his description. That was my first clue, that somethings happened more to me, than I knew, when Mary gave me that A GIFT.

Till this day, if a person of God is having a mystical experience from God, I can see about 20 to 80% of what they see, and feel 20% to 80% of what they feel.

I tested this. With those not of God, when I give them any mystical experience of God, mine or someone else's, they always get it wrong. Also, anything they tell me, I never see, nor hear what they see or hear or feel.

So, yes, it looks like you are right. One mystic of God, knows when they are talking to another mystic of God, and probably for the reasons, that you have just stated, but it may be more. It may be, that mysticism of God, is a grace, and you and I have to have the same grace, to share. Yet, mystics of God, is not a club, it is a job. I and no one like me, pals around, instead we go from one task to another, for God.

We, mystics of God, work for God, and that is just another way, God tells His people how to work for Him. He does use the Bible for me, and I am sure all others like me. He also uses people of God. He also can and has given me direct communications for the benefit of others, for me to do for Him.

In one case, with direct day time visions. God is not going to let me off the hook, like Jonah, until I perform, for the woman He is having me work for.

In those day time visions, there is doorway. It is dark inside. Mary and Jesus are on the left. God The Fathers feelings for this woman are there. The Holy Spirit has formed a bubble for us all to work in. I am there. She the woman is there. Eventually I speak.

I told her what I was seeing. I noticed a white spot on the lower left side of the doorway. I have seen that sort of thing before. I guessed it was damage that needed repair. I started to guess, on how to do that. Eventually I guessed right, and the first day I saw most of it repaired, and then much more of the vision. On day two, the repair was better, but still that bright spot showed through. How, I got this next part, I don't remember exactly. (Usually indicates a Holy Spirit comminication, as that is how He is much to most of the time. I get information, without knowing the person, or entity who gave it to me. Rather, I feel it in my heart.), it is love. I didn't know that before.

There was something that involved her. I set up an appointment, but canceled as I was too sick, and figured that I would not be able to keep that appointment. WRONG! I was totally sick all day. Just in time, I was well. I kept my appointment. She had made other plans with my cancellation. I figured that was The Holy Spirit telling me that I needed to have more Faith in Him.

Still that broken part of the doorway, shining through the repaired stone door step or side, would not go away. Argh. Then one day, everything went wrong for her and for me. I am in her office at work. Her luncheon appointment has been cancelled. I have two hours of her time, that was not planned on by her or me.

I told her, I need her to do this, her part with me. I told her I think, "I need this to go away." She consented. And when I was done with my part, never again did I have this day time vision with her. But, I did have another daytime vision with her and with Jesus and with Mary, but that is off topic and for another time.

Yes, those like me can see what I saw. If you are like me, then you saw some of what I saw, in my descpritions above.

Please know this. I am like this, but in every other way, I am like everyone else, in the way I live on earth, and the way I have to try and not sin, and the way I have to do everything else, Biblically. I feel no different, but I wish I were full of grace like Mary, or Jesus, or Holy with what Jesus gave them to do miracles and to not sin ever.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

katerinah1947 said:

After I came back from my first successful calling from God on a faith plus item, in which I was given a lot of things from God but at the request of Mary, in gift form to me, somebody asked me, if anything happened to me.

I responded with. Yes. Yes something did happen to me. He then proceeds to tell me about his trip to Jerusalem, on a bus. I saw, what he saw, in parts of his description. That was my first clue, that somethings happened more to me, than I knew, when Mary gave me that A GIFT.

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Using a Catholic example to promote Christian mysticism in a Reformed forum is probably not going to do much to further the cause of Christian mysticism. I think you just made Twin's point quite well, and I consider myself a continuationist.

JM said:

We have discussed before as to the validity of "Christian mysticism" but I'm asking how do we explain the phenomena. Is it a brain glitch? There is little doubt that Calvinists deny mysticism so I’m trying to clarify how mysticism is explained.

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Hi,

Assuming I am allowed to reply, as I am no longer sure, for me mysticism, was a surprise to me, if that helps.

For me also, God caused it all, if that helps.

For me, I see people who want to get answers from God, but in ways that seem to be putting God as their employee or slave.

I did none of that, to my knowledge.

I would say, if anyone is asking, I don't know how one becomes mystical. I don't.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

JM said:

We have discussed before as to the validity of "Christian mysticism" but I'm asking how do we explain the phenomena. Is it a brain glitch? There is little doubt that Calvinists deny mysticism so I’m trying to clarify how mysticism is explained.

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One of Satan's greatest deceits is to appear as an angel of righteousness to the gullible and those who tend to trust experience more than fact. The deceit of New Age teaching and other "mystical" religions also contributes to the phenomenon. I know with a shadow of a doubt that there are many things that cannot be seen by the physical eye that are very dangerous to the soul of men. That is why we must rely on the Word alone, opened up by the Spirit, as our guide. Anything that would draw us away from a complete and full rest in Christ is not of the Spirit.

That is not to say that faith is without experience. Certainly we experience faith in a very meaningful way. We just don't focus on the experience of faith nor do we place our faith in it. We are alive from the dead and as living spirits in a dead body we take our day to day existence in this life looking simply and fully to Christ. The peace that passes understanding and lifts up hanging heads and fallen saints is not an experience it is a rest in facts that are not seen but known. Those facts are found in the Scriptures in the form of promises and proclamations from God to His people.

JM said:

We have discussed before as to the validity of "Christian mysticism" but I'm asking how do we explain the phenomena. Is it a brain glitch? There is little doubt that Calvinists deny mysticism so I’m trying to clarify how mysticism is explained.

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We know from the Bible of a few sources of spiritual experience, including angels, fallen angels, demons, and, yes, even the Holy Spirit. Additionally, we know that there are physical causes, like a temporal epilepsy, that can give rise to what would appear to be a spiritual experience. I can fully appreciate the dangers of relying on the supernatural. It intrigues us for the very reason that we do not understand it. The fact that we do not understand it is why we would be easily led astray by it. Whereas there are many sources for a spiritual experience, there is only one Bible, and it is a physical object that lies well within our grasp of reality.

Still, Calvinism is founded upon one very mystical idea, which is that we require the Holy Spirit to lead us to that redemptive faith. Regardless of the doctrine that we gain by the Bible, we are only led to believe in that doctrine by the involvement of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not that seems mystical at the time, it is still very much a supernatural experience. I listed some possible sources of mystical experience, and the dangers of mistaking one for the other are not only a very real possibility but also of damning results. However, the rejection of all of those influences would be equally damning and of complete certainty. Follow the supernatural and you might be following a demon. Reject the supernatural and you will be rejecting the Holy Spirit.

Some would certainly feel that following the Holy Spirit does not require a mystical experience, but I disagree. Anything, any force, any experience, any motivation or anything at all that goes beyond the normal physical realities of nature is inherently mystical, because it is supernatural, by definition. It may be that we learn to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the most natural way, but what that only means is that the leading of the Spirit has become so natural to us that we cease to perceive it as a mystical experience, and we become used to it. It is no less mystical if we miss the fact that it is.

Again, we cannot reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because without that Spirit we would never come to faith in the first place, and no experience of the Holy Spirit can be explained wholly in naturalistic terms. It's not a question of whether Christians believe in mystical experience. We are not deists. It's a question of which mystical experiences we accept and how far out of our comfort zones we are willing to venture.

Well, maybe I am nuts, but my own conversion was the result of three separate miracles. I repented of my sins after hearing Augustine being read I literally felt an odd sensation that I lost 50 pounds off my shoulders when I realized that I was a sinner and right there repented. Fast forward two years, I am reading up on philosophy, muslim theology, and of course the Bible. I couldn't square what the Bible said with empiricism. I prayed about it and agonized for 45 minutes or so. I was thinking of calling an old teacher of mine in the middle of the night I was so bothered. Then, as a response of prayer I heard, "Just have faith." I interpreted the message as "don't square the Scripture with empiricism, you don't need to prove it, just have faith." Lastly, not long afterwards I was just joy reading the Bible. I had a liberal view of the Scripture so I was reading Hebrews, because I felt it was more historically accurate. When reading Heb 6 I laid my eyes upon "let's move past the elementary matters of the faith..." Then I heard a voice say, "Read Romans 10:9." Now, I already knew what Rom 10:9 said, so it wasn't like I was not aware of what it taught, but I turned back and read it anyway. I laid my eyes upon the passage, read it, and for the first time believed it. I was instantly saved.


The point of my story? My conversion is full of mystical experiences...but nothing subsequent in my life is all that mystical. Further, having read the mystics, mysticism seems to me very works based and it often crosses into pagan practices. So, seeking mysticism seems to me Satanic. Christians do not empty their minds, they meditate upon truths and reflect upon what they have to be grateful for. THe full mind, as opposed to the empty mind, is the antithesis of mysticism which is why I think mysticism is satanic.

JM said:

I think mystical experience is not the same as seeking the mystical as the goal or aim of the Christian life.

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Hi,
I would say you are correct. I will say more words now, but I don't think any of my words will change "I would say you are correct."

As far as I know Christianity is just trying to be the Christian that God calls an individual to be. I think in Romans somewhere Paul speaking for The Holy Spirit or for God in some capacity, said no matter how much we do, we are not to think of ourselves as having done any great work, in finding God and becoming a believer in Jesus Christ, as both of those really come from God and not us. Both, the calling and the faith are from God.

Each of us is just to follow God in whatever way, He chooses for us, in the instant. I would say from what I know that it is okay to seek a mystical encounter, but you cannot demand or expect it.

I would say that if you get a mystical experience, fine. If you don't then what? Then you have other things from God to let you live your life in Him and Him in you. Each is given by God. Usually there are not two of anything.

Are there two Pauls, two Abrahams, two Jobs, two Peters? Or, is there one and then somehow there is still plenty to go around, so each of us can feel entirely loved by God, as we get to know Him?

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .