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Explain Freewill

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Stairway

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I am not suggesting that you are denying your own experiences, because even though they may not be "real" you are still having them. However, I do not think that any of our choices are really our own, because we incapable of extending beyond our biological makeup and social conditioning.

It is important to note, that if the true nature of the universe is depressing, pretending it isn't will not change the outcome. However, if one learns about the true nature of things, then there is always the possibility of change later on.
 
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seebs

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Well, if the world is deterministic, I can't choose anything, so it doesn't matter.

But I don't think it is; I think there's a tendency towards conflation and equivocation in this, and a model of causality that I'm not sure applies correctly.
 
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TheMagi

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Stairway said:
However, I do not think that any of our choices are really our own, because we incapable of extending beyond our biological makeup and social conditioning.
Click to expand...

Why? do you really think that makeup/social conditioning is ever elaborate enough to prepare us for the exigenices and unpredictability of real life?
There is no reason to believe that you cannot choose, just because your choices are restricted by certain factors...

Magi
 
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Stairway

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My counter-argument would be that if there was a "divine-plan" our choices, our attributes and essentially the meaning to our existance would be tainted by the whim of wharever wrote the "divine-plant". That aside, I am not a strict determinist, although I do believe free-will to some extent is an illusion. I suppose the next logical question is; do you believe that animals (lets say mammals) have free will?
 
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Kasey

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I would say that we all must choose from the choices that are presented to us, whatever those choices might be.

If you are talking about the ultimate ideal situation of Free-Will such as being able to decide anything at any time concerning any given thing and the consequences of those acts are even something that you could choose, then no, we have no such free-will.

The only possible way that that could ever be achieved is if you were a God or had the power of a God. Being able to choose anything about anything is the result of what you are and who you are and that was already determined by something else. Since you cant change that, nor predetermine what was, or what will be, then there is nothing that you can do and that kind of wishful thinking will never happen because as humans, we cant do that.
 
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TheMagi

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Stairway said:
My counter-argument would be that if there was a "divine-plan" our choices, our attributes and essentially the meaning to our existance would be tainted by the whim of wharever wrote the "divine-plant".
Click to expand...
'Tainted'? Do you mean our choices would be restricted? Of course they would - how that qualifies as a taint I don't know. It runs back to the standard parent-child argument. Just because mummy doesn't let me freely play in the middle of a main road doesn't mean she 'taints' my play...
Only if the plan genuinely prevents free will/choice could it be in any way demeaning
Stairway said:
That aside, I am not a strict determinist, although I do believe free-will to some extent is an illusion. I suppose the next logical question is; do you believe that animals (lets say mammals) have free will?
Click to expand...
Um... I don't know. Does it matter? Could we know? We just don't understand enough about either what it means to have free will, whether they have it, or what the implications are if they do/don't...

Magi
 
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Stairway

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Um... I don't know. Does it matter? Could we know? We just don't understand enough about either what it means to have free will, whether they have it, or what the implications are if they do/don't...
Click to expand...

It matters a great deal. Because mammals as far as I am concerned are much more similar to us than we would like to admit. If other mammals have freewill then we too must also have it. If animals do not, then either we do not or we developed it at some point of the evolutionary stage (don't argue creation vs evolution here).

That being said, if someone can explain to me how they are able to make decisions without their biological makeup or socialization being an influence, I would like to hear it.
 
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Stairway

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Freewill: Anything done of one's own accord; voluntary.

Although, I believe freewill is a myth because we are prisoner to our own biology and socialization. For example, I am attracted to women (not by choice), so I will likely act differently when in the company of women (due to my attraction). However, I did not choose this, if I was born and was attracted to men (or whatever) I would act differently when in the company of whatever it was I was attracted to.
 
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TheMagi

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There is no need to argue creation vs. evolution, although obviously I disagree with you entirely on it.
The argument starts at the wrong end - you say we are similar to mammals - which of course we are. But if we assume that the essential defining characteristic of humanity is free will - which many would do - then we are only similar in what matters if they also have free will.
We do not discover whether they have free will by noticing their similarity; we discover whether they are similar by discovering noticing whether or not they have free will.
To say 'if they do' or 'if they do not' is futile. We haven't defined free will. Even if we do so, we have to discover firm evidence of it in another creature before we can take our argument further. Philosophers have, obviously, argued whether we can tell if others, or we ourselves, have free will, for as long as philosophy has been around. If it cannot be said for those we understand as well as other humans, then how on earth can we even give a coherent argument one way or the other for animals?

Stairway said:
That being said, if someone can explain to me how they are able to make decisions without their biological makeup or socialization being an influence, I would like to hear it.
Click to expand...
I doubt anyone could. It doesn't matter. What matters is whether we have free will or not - and that we decide by showing whether it is only such influences that affect decisions.
Being a Christian, I have to point out that I believe only God is completely free in all decisions - that being a neat enscapulation of part of what it is to be God. We are not trying to discover whether we have that sort of complete free will, which we clearly do not, but whether we have free will, the ability to make decisions not totally predictable or conditioned by outside influences. That is a very different thing.

Magi
 
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TheMagi

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Stairway said:
Freewill: Anything done of one's own accord; voluntary.
Click to expand...
? But what's that?


Yes - but how do you act differently? Do you ask the person out, cower under the table, say nothing, have a chat, or proclaim that you are the fish?
You say you act differently - that is not to deny free will. To do that is to deny that any detail of your action is determined by anything other than that biology or socialization.

Magi
 
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TheMagi

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why do you think so? How do you know?
Magi
 
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Stairway

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It is pretty well documented that our biological drives (sex, food, sleep etc) are all related to respective genes. Additionally, if you cut out parts of the frontal lobe of the brain, you can quite effectively rid someone of their emotions. As far as socialization goes, imagine being born with food and water available to you, although without anyone else , or any literature around. Imagine how different you would be, despite being biologically identical. We learn how to act from parents, peers, teachers etc.

Magi: I am going to sleep now, we can resume this discussion tommorow.
 
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Antoninus Verus

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According to Christians, yes we do have free will. But its a rather rigged version of it. Kind of like if a cop corners someone and has his gun out. The guy has a gun and the cop says "You got two options, 1. Draw that gun 2. Put your hands in the air" The Christian God supposedly gives you the ability to choose to worship him or not. But not worshiping him is the same as the guy drawing a gun on the cop, hes going to get shot. The same happens if you chose NOT to worship God, you burn in hell. So it comes off rather like "You can choose if you want to worship me...but youd BETTER choose to otherwise youll burn!"
 
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