Examining Calvinistic "Proof Texts"

TheSeabass · Dec 16, 2016

JoeP222w said:
Matthew 23:37 is a statement of Judgment. It is not about Salvation. Context matters.

And the amazing thing is not that God hated Esau, but that God loves anyone. God is not obliged to man.

Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

This is about salvation. Christ JUDGED them to not be saved. You cannot separate judgment from salvation here.

God never had an emotional hate towards the individual Esau. He did have less favor for the Edomites while having "more favor" for the Israelites....see Gen 29:30,31:
"he loved also Rachel more than Leah" = " Leah was hated"

"God is love" 1 John 4:8 so it is not surprising to me that God loves man even though man "breaks God's heart" in those choices they make...God still loves them.

Hank77 · Dec 16, 2016

Tree of Life said:
Could you cite Calvin on this issue? I've read nothing in Calvin to this affect.

I agree that Calvin talked about an effectual calling. However this does not negate free will.

I agree that Calvin taught "Unconditional Election" as it is called above. This, however, does not negate free will.

I'm only referring to Calvin's view of salvation, not any other views that he had about man's will.

You will have to do your own investigation. Just read John Calvin's writings on the irresistible call and the general call. You can find them online. I don't have them bookmarked on this computer or I would give you the link.
But this may give you some insight into the differences between Calvin's view of predestination and an Armenian's view of predestination, who was predestined before the foundation of the world.
Read John Calvin Commentary on Eph 1:3-4.
Then read Adam Clarke's Commentary on the same verses.
Ephesians 1 Calvin's Commentaries

Paul's writings in Romans about the 'mystery' that had been kept secret before Christ makes Eph 1:3-4 understandable.

Now Really this is the last I will post on this subject. I am not a preacher or a theologian. On this subject, that is very sensitive to many people, I can only post what has been written by those wiser than me. My opinion does not hold water compared to theirs.

JoeP222w · Dec 19, 2016

TheSeabass said:
God never had an emotional hate towards the individual Esau.

The passage does not specify "emotional hate".

TheSeabass said:
"God is love"

But that is not God's one and only attribute.

TheSeabass · Dec 20, 2016

JoeP222w said:
The passage does not specify "emotional hate".

Calvinist attribute that the 'hate' God had for Esau was an emotional type hate when it was not.

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Comparing these verses, it can easily be seen that "hate" simply means to love less. One is to hate, that is, one is to love their parents less than he loves God. Yet if 'hate' means the emotional type hate Calvinists apply to it, then Calvinists must truly hate/passionately detest/have an intense dislike/have an extreme loathing of their mother and father to be worthy of Christ.

JoeP222w said:
But that is not God's one and only attribute.

Hating (emotional type hate) men as is not one of God's attributes.

JoeP222w · Dec 20, 2016

TheSeabass said:
Calvinist attribute that the 'hate' God had for Esau was an emotional type hate when it was not.

Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Comparing these verses, it can easily be seen that "hate" simply means to love less. One is to hate, that is, one is to love their parents less than he loves God. Yet if 'hate' means the emotional type hate Calvinists apply to it, then Calvinists must truly hate/passionately detest/have an intense dislike/have an extreme loathing of their mother and father to be worthy of Christ.

Hating (emotional type hate) men as is not one of God's attributes.

How do you exegete this scripture?:

Psalms 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Are you honestly saying that God has "less love" for evildoers? Is God not holy?

"Comparing these verses, it can easily be seen that "hate" simply means to love less."

From the Luke and Matthew passage, yes. Does that mean you interpret any appearance of the word "hate" in the rest of the Bible in the same way? I would hope you would not say yes.

Context matters.

Marvin Knox · Dec 20, 2016

TheSeabass said:
Predestination and calvinism
If Calvinism's idea of predestination is right per the above link, then in John 8:41 the Jews said they were of God, that God was their Father. Then according to the Calvinistic proof text of John 10:26, those of God, Christ's sheep, will automatically believe in Christ and be saved, yet these Jews were rejecting Christ. So why were these Jews who said God was their Father rejecting Christ?

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants" Romans 9:6-7

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

Tree of Life said:
Could you cite Calvin on this issue? I've read nothing in Calvin to this affect.

I think you are a troll.
If you are a Calvinist as you claim then why have you never read Calvin's Institutes ?

If you are just lazy then google "Calvin's terrible decree" to learn what he said, wrote and published.

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

Calvinism, also known as Reformed Theology or the so called “Doctrines of Grace,” has had some resurgence in recent years. This has deeply disturbed and troubled me as Calvinism is a very heretical and dangerous theology that believers can be deceived into. Still, many believers have never even heard of Calvinism.For that reason, I find it necessary to post what it is that Calvinism teaches and how these false doctrines are in contradiction to the Holy Scriptures.

These are some of the major theological problems with Calvinism:

1. Calvinism denies man’s free will to obey or disobey God, which is the basis of man’s responsibility and accountability, as taught by the Bible: (Gen. 4:6-7; Deut. 11:26-28; 30:11-15, 19; Josh. 24:15; Jer. 38:20; Eze. 18:30; Acts 17:30-31);

Augustine said, “By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”

Augustine said, “By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.”

Augustine said, “by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”

Martin Luther said that “the law demands of men what they cannot do…”

Martin Luther said, “For if man has lost his freedom, and is forced to serve sin, and cannot will good, what conclusion can more justly be drawn concerning him, than that he sins and wills evil necessarily?”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

Calvinism denies that each individual is responsible and accountable for their own sins committed in their own life, and will not be damned for the sins of anyone else, as the Bible teaches: (Lev. 18:29; Deut. 24:16; 2 Kng. 14:6; 2 Chron. 25:4; Eze. 18:2-6; Eze. 18:20; Jer. 17:10; Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:5-6; Rom. 14:12; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Cor. 11:15; 1 Pet. 1:17; Rev. 20:11-12; Rev. 22:12);

John Calvin stated, “Adam drew all his posterity with himself, by his fall, into eternal damnation.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

3. Calvinism denies that Christ died for everyone (Heb. 2:9; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Jn. 2:2), and His unlimited atonement does not make salvation automatic for anyone, but available for everyone (Jn. 3:14-17; 12:46; Acts 10:43; Rom. 10:11; Rev. 22:17), and that those for whom Christ died can still perish (Rom. 14:15; 1 Cor. 8:11; 2 Pet. 2:1); as the Bible teaches.

Custance said, “No man can be held accountable for a debt that has already been paid for on his behalf to the satisfaction of the offended party. But a double jeopardy, a duplication of indebtedness, is indeed involved if the non-elect are to be punished for sins which the Lord Jesus Christ has already endured punishment.”

Boettner said, “For God to have laid the sins of all men on Christ would mean that as regards to the lost He would be punishing their sins twice, once in Christ, and then again in them.”

Wayne Grudem said, “Reformed people argue that if Christ’s death actually paid for the sins of every person who ever lived, then there is no penalty left for anyone to pay, and it necessarily follows that all people will be saved, without exception. For God could not condemn to eternal punishment anyone whose sins are already paid for: that would be demanding double payment, and it would therefore be unjust.”

Joshua Williamson said, “If Christ died for everyone, everyone would be saved.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

4. Calvinism denies the universal benevolence or love of God, which wants all sinners to repent and be saved as taught by the Bible: (Eze. 33:11; John 3:14-17; 2 Pet. 3:19);

John Calvin said, “not only was the destruction of the ungodly foreknown, but the ungodly themselves have been created for the specific purpose of perishing.”

John Calvin said, “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.”

John Calvin said, “At this point in particular the flesh rages when it hears that the predestination to death of those who perish is referred to the will of God.”

Alan Kurschner said, “God desires that his sheep are saved. God desires that his people are saved. He does not desire that every single individual who has ever lived, live in glory with him forever. If that were the case, we have an incompetent, unhappy, and impotent God.”

Matthew McMahon said, “I reject anything which makes God a cosmic bell-hop tending to the commands and demands of sinful men as another gospel. I reject anything which removes God’s sovereignty to place man as the Sovereign as another gospel. I reject anything which denies the sovereign decrees of God and His electing grace to put salvation into the hands of sinful men as another gospel. I reject anything which denies man’s total depravity and exalts his fictitious free will as another gospel. I reject anything which places the perseverance of man to glory in the incapable hands of a sinful man as another gospel. I reject anything which endeavors to treat God as the great Grandfather in the sky beckoning and pleading with man to be saved as changing the true God into a pitiable wimp.”

Erwin Lutzer said, “The revealed will was that all men be saved, but the hidden will was that the greater part of mankind be damned.”

John Calvin said, “His secret counsel, by which He determined to convert none but His elect.”

John MacArthur, comments: “His patience is not so He can save all of them, but so that He can receive all of His own…”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

5. Calvinism denies the conditional security of believers or the possibility of falling away from the faith as taught by the Bible (Matt. 24:13; Jn. 15:6; Acts 11:23; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:22; Rom. 8:13; Rom. 11:20-21; 1 Cor. 9:27; Heb. 2:1-3; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Pet. 2:20-21);

Martin Luther said, “Be a sinner and sin boldly… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

Westminster Confession of Faith said, “They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

6. Calvinism denies man’s role, responsibility, and choice to cooperate with God in regeneration or in the changing of his heart as taught by the Bible(Deut. 10:16; Eze. 18:30-32; Ps. 78:8; Ps. 95:8; Heb. 3:15; Act 7:51; 17:30-31; Jas. 4:8; Col. 3:9-10; Eph. 4:22, 24; 1 Tim. 4:16);

Martin Luther said, “I say that man… when he is re-created does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves…”

A. W. Pink said, “The new birth is solely the work of God the Spirit and man has no part in it.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

7. Calvinism denies that there is deliverance available from all sin in Jesus Christ, or the possibility of overcoming sin in this life by the grace of God as taught by the Bible (Matt. 1:21; Jn. 8:36; Rom. 6:18, 20, 22; 8:2; 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Thes. 5:23; Titus 2:11-12; Jude 1:24; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 Jn. 1:9; 3:9).

The Westminster Catechism says, “No man is able, either of himself, or by any grace received in this life, perfectly to keep the commandments of God; but does daily break them in word, thought, and deed.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

8. Calvinism denies that man’s choice to repent of all his sins is a necessary condition of forgiveness, but rather teaches that justification by grace through faith is nothing more than justification in sin and impenitence (Antinomianism), as opposed to what the Bible teaches: (Isa. 55:7; Eze. 18:30; Prov. 28:13; Matt. 7:21; 19:17; Lk. 13:3; Acts 8:22; Rom. 2:5; 6:1-2; Titus 2:1112; Jude 1:4; Rev. 22:14).

Charles Spurgeon said, “You must not expect that you will be perfect in ‘repentance’ before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. “Repentance” is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself…”

Harry Ironside said, “The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past … Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

9. Calvinism denies that God is not the author of sin, nor the sovereign cause of its entrance into the world, as taught by the Bible (Gen. 1:31; 6:5-6; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jer. 19:5, 32:35; Isa. 5:4; Zeph. 3:5; Ecc. 7:29; Matt. 6:10; Lk. 7:30; 1 Cor. 14:33; Heb. 1:9, James 1:13).

Martin Luther said, “Since, therefore, God moves and does all in all, He necessarily moves and does all in Satan and the wicked man…”

Martin Luther said, “God worketh all things in all men even wickedness in the wicked…”

John Calvin said, “Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God.”

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

See also the article, “Is God the Author of Sin?“

There are many other orthodox doctrines which are taught in the Scriptures and which were held by all of the Early Church which are denied by Augustinian and Reformed Theology, but the above is sufficient for this article.

As much as Calvinism claims to be orthodox, its doctrines are utterly opposed to the doctrines of the Early Church Fathers before Augustine, and they have more in common with the heretical teachings of the Gnostics and Manicheans.

See the article, “Did He Corrupt The Church With Gnostic Doctrine?“

Sadly, many Calvinist groups function as a cult today, claiming exclusively that Calvinism is Christianity, that their doctrine of T.U.L.I.P. is the gospel itself, and that anyone who disagrees with their doctrine is a “heretic,” “false teacher,” or “false convert.” They are quick to break fellowship with, and falsely accuse, any Christian that contradicts their own theology.

I have always found it interesting that these groups will hail John Calvin as a hero, but will label Charles Finney a heretic. Charles Finney was America’s greatest revivalist, who lead a quarter of a million people to the Lord. The vast majority of his converts stayed in the faith until their dying day, unlike other evangelists like D. L. Moody or Billy Graham, who’s converts mostly fell away. John Calvin on the other hand had excommunicated and even killed countless individuals. Calvinists overlook this and often seek to justify it, while they are quick to condemn Finney because he used “altar calls.” I can supply story after story of Finney winning sinners to Christ, but Calvinists have been unable to provide for me even a single story of John Calvin ever personally leading a sinner to Jesus. There are plenty of stories of John Calvin burning sinners at the stake, but not a single one of him leading souls to Christ like Charles Finney did. Yet, they exalt Calvin as a hero and criticize Finney for calling sinners to repentance at the altar.

Samson Reaper · Dec 25, 2016

Note - I have quoted main steam Calvinists above. Please don't anyone reply with the "You do not understand Calvinism" sound byte. Yes I do, which is why I am no longer in that movement.

God Bless,

EmSw · Dec 25, 2016

Samson Reaper said:
Note - I have quoted main steam Calvinists above. Please don't anyone reply with the "You do not understand Calvinism" sound byte. Yes I do, which is why I am no longer in that movement.

God Bless,

Very good posts SR. I can't count the times I've been called a 'false teacher' on this board. Many of the Reformed on this board will spew their 'hatred' for those who try to question their doctrines. And yes, many have walked away because they can't convince me of their teachings.

Some even try to tell us man has free will which is compatible with God's predestination. Yet, in their view, man cannot go against God's predestination, thus leaving man's free will a crippled hope.

And yes, if I had a dollar for every time I've been told I don't understand Calvinism, I'd be a rich man.

May God bless you richly.

Samson Reaper · Dec 28, 2016

EmSw said:
Very good posts SR. I can't count the times I've been called a 'false teacher' on this board. Many of the Reformed on this board will spew their 'hatred' for those who try to question their doctrines. And yes, many have walked away because they can't convince me of their teachings.

Some even try to tell us man has free will which is compatible with God's predestination. Yet, in their view, man cannot go against God's predestination, thus leaving man's free will a crippled hope.

And yes, if I had a dollar for every time I've been told I don't understand Calvinism, I'd be a rich man.

May God bless you richly.

Thanks EmSw

I had a PM from someone regarding double payment. Weird; Jesus paid the price of all sin on the cross so if God then sends those he predestined to hell then,... well, see this article - Is God the Author of Sin? Calvinism Refuted – Jesse Morrell

Examining Calvinistic "Proof Texts"

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