Evolution vs Creation

ServantofTheOne · Apr 7, 2005

caravelair said:
QM predicts the spontanious formation of virtual particle pairs, which immediately cancel each other out and poof back into non-existence. however, during the inflationary period of the big bang, the particle pairs would be moved away from each other too rapidly to cancel each other, so you would get real particles.

just because you don't know its cause doesn't mean its without cause.

Randall McNally · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
just because you don't know its cause doesn't mean its without cause.

Our best efforts have failed to uncover any semblance of cause. In fact, the relevant models predict causeless quantum events.

If you want to play the 3rd grade "what if" game, do it elsewhere please.

caravelair · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
just because you don't know its cause doesn't mean its without cause.

no, but the point is, there is no need for a cause.

Lucretius · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
just because you don't know its cause doesn't mean its without cause.

Guess you have never heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Lord Emsworth · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
all things have a cause regardless if it happens for no reason or not.

I bet dollars to doughnuts that you don't believe that all things have a cause.

corvus_corax · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
all things have a cause regardless if it happens for no reason or not.

(emphasis added)
What is the cause the created God?

ServantofTheOne · Apr 7, 2005

corvus_corax said:
(emphasis added)
What is the cause the created God?

the Creator is not a thing contained within this universe, and He is not restricted by its laws.

a programmer creates a program that does adds only like numbers, 1+1=2, 2+2=4, etc etc... and the "universe" of this program is limited to this Law. similarly we are created with certain finite laws governing our universe and all things follow certain properties and by certain criterea... one of these properties is cause and effect. every result in this universe follows this property, despite we might not know the cause of certain things that seem spontaneous.

this property cannot be applicable to the Creator just like the restrictive properties of the computer program cannot be applied to the programmer.

Lucretius · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
the Creator is not a thing contained within this universe, and He is not restricted by its laws.
<snip>
this property cannot be applicable to the Creator just like the restrictive properties of the computer program cannot be applied to the programmer.

Yum.

Nothing tastes better than a double standard.

Edx · Apr 7, 2005

Id like to point out that even if you proved the universe and a cause, that woulndt prove there was an intelligence behind it, much less the God of the Bible. Pantheist beliefs are far more likely.

Randall McNally · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
the Creator is not a thing contained within this universe, and He is not restricted by its laws.

a programmer creates a program that does adds only like numbers, 1+1=2, 2+2=4, etc etc... and the "universe" of this program is limited to this Law. similarly we are created with certain finite laws governing our universe and all things follow certain properties and by certain criterea... one of these properties is cause and effect. every result in this universe follows this property, despite we might not know the cause of certain things that seem spontaneous.

this property cannot be applicable to the Creator just like the restrictive properties of the computer program cannot be applied to the programmer.

Lord Emsworth wins a dollar. Or a doughnut.

ServantofTheOne · Apr 7, 2005

what double standard's? how can you apply the same laws within creation to the creator? it doesn't make sense. if everything within this universe has a cause why do we stop at the beginning. what caused the universe to be the way it is.
how can all things come to be as they are without causal mechanism. can we conclude that there is nothing behind all of the universe. that things developed by its own power.\

AdamAnderson21 · Apr 7, 2005

There are two creations discussed in the Bible. One of them is spiritual creation and the other is physical creation, or evolution. The view of evolution has been held in esoteric religious schools since the Bible was authored. The Bible and science should neve be in conflict. If they are it is because science hasn't advanced far enough. Evolution describes how we got our physical bodies.

A time will come when men of science will, in their search for the missing link between man and animal, attempt to consider the monkey as that living form from which man evolved.

Tree of Life, Gate 42, Ch. 1
Rabbi Isaac Luria, 16th century

He also wrote that the thumb was the key to human intellegence.

The age of the universe is also expressed in the Bible as roughly 15 billion years. The key is the 90th Psalm which Moses wrote. A God day corresponds to one thousand man years. There were seven cycles of creation, each one lasting seven thousand years. We are now living in the seventh cycle. In the sixth cycle, before man was created, time was measured in God years. So we have forty two tousand God years before the creation of man. A God year equals 365 God days. So we have 15,330,000 God days before the creation of man. Remember a God day equals one thousand man years, so we have 15,330,000,000 man years before the creation of man. This is remarkably close to current estimates.

Edx · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
what double standard's? how can you apply the same laws within creation to the creator? it doesn't make sense. if everything within this universe has a cause why do we stop at the beginning. what caused the universe to be the way it is.
how can all things come to be as they are without causal mechanism. can we conclude that there is nothing behind all of the universe. that things developed by its own power.\

So if the universe has a cause, how does that equal the Bible God? Why does it have to be consious entity. Why does it have to be a singular entity. How does that make Genesis anymore accurate. If the universe has a cause, pantheism is the most likley belief that is correct.

Ed

Edx · Apr 7, 2005

AdamAnderson21 said:
He also wrote that the thumb was the key to human intellegence.

And science doesnt say we evolved from a monkey. And there is no mission link between humans and apes, we ARE apes and its only our arogance that we define ourselves as humans like we are somehow so different to animals.

Ed

ServantofTheOne · Apr 7, 2005

Edx said:
So if the universe has a cause, how does that equal the Bible God? Why does it have to be consious entity. Why does it have to be a singular entity. How does that make Genesis anymore accurate. If the universe has a cause, pantheism is the most likley belief that is correct.

Ed

did i say it equals the Bible God. Let us first answer the question "where did we come from" first then we will determine which concept of the Creator is true or not.

conscious entity, because it is obviously a conscious design. if all things became as they are unconsciously, then a hurricane can go through a lumber factory and produce a house. the ordered universe and all things within it points to conscious design, not random occurence. if you saw the mona lisa on the wall, do you think that paint was thrown onto canvas and produced the portrait... no way. how then can this beautiful universe been just thrown together without intention, or will, or design.

how is pantheism more correct?

Edx · Apr 7, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
did i say it equals the Bible God. Let us first answer the question "where did we come from" first then we will determine which concept of the Creator is true or not.

Well there was a cause, obviously because we are here. The question is what you mean by a cause, and I know you mean something alltogether Biblical.

conscious entity, because it is obviously a conscious design. if all things became as they are unconsciously, then a hurricane can go through a lumber factory and produce a house.

And I bet you actually think evolution works like that. After everything people have said to you. I am staggered.

the ordered universe and all things within it points to conscious design, not random occurence. if you saw the mona lisa on the wall, do you think that paint was thrown onto canvas and produced the portrait... no way. how then can this beautiful universe been just thrown together without intention, or will, or design.

Again, I bet you actually think evolution works like that.

how is pantheism more correct?

It has far less logical inconsistences. Seen Star Wars? The Force idea is based off pantheism. That also makes more sence.

Ed

gluadys · Apr 7, 2005

Edx said:
Well there was a cause, obviously because we are here. The question is what you mean by a cause, and I know you mean something alltogether Biblical.

No, Edx, he doesn't mean something altogether biblical. You and other posters have forgotten to check out Servant of the One's religious icon. Not to mention his avatar.

He means something altogether Qur'anic.

Edx · Apr 7, 2005

gluadys said:
He means something altogether Qur'anic.

basically the same thing as I see it.

ServantofTheOne · Apr 8, 2005

Qur'anic or Biblical or Pantheism is not at issue here. The question is, is there a Creator or not. Where did we come from.

there are 2 choices, Creator who created everything by design, or no Creator and everything came to be as a result of evolution and abiogenesis.

Some people try to resolve their beliefs by believing in a mixture of both by claiming that evolution is a mechanism Created by the Creator and that we are still evolved animals, and thats how the Creator meant it to be. These people have submitted to the group think mentality and want to be included on the bandwagon of evolutionary theory at the same time not give up their belief in a Creator. This shouldn't be considered a choice because evolutionary theory has no room for God.. evolution relies on the mechanism for development to be adaptation or mutation. There is no mention of willful design or willful circumstance that things have become the way they are as a result of willful conscious design. If one believes in a Creator and believes that the Creator created all things the way they are, as He willed, and that he may have changed his creation from one form to another, Creating a diverse set of species by his will Cannot attribute this to the theory of evolution, as it would be contrary to the theory.

Both views are mutually exclusive. There is no room for compromising the power and majesty of the Creator by injecting the limitation of evolution to His creativity.

Edx · Apr 8, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
there are 2 choices, Creator who created everything by design, or no Creator and everything came to be as a result of evolution and abiogenesis.

There are more choices, but these are theistic choices where you assume a creater not that it has been created. Im sure you do not see the difference.

These people have submitted to the group think mentality and want to be included on the bandwagon of evolutionary theory at the same time not give up their belief in a Creator. This shouldn't be considered a choice because evolutionary theory has no room for God..

You are telling them what to believe? Is the famous paleontologist and firey Bible believing pentacostal preacher Dr Robert Bakker also just wanting to be popular?
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/8152/robertbakker.html

evolution relies on the mechanism for development to be adaptation or mutation. There is no mention of willful design or willful circumstance that things have become the way they are as a result of willful conscious design.

So what? If the evidence suggests a God you'l have found the only scientific evidence of God ever.

If one believes in a Creator and believes that the Creator created all things the way they are, as He willed, and that he may have changed his creation from one form to another, Creating a diverse set of species by his will Cannot attribute this to the theory of evolution, as it would be contrary to the theory.

Why? Evolution doesnt talk about a god, you do.

Both views are mutually exclusive. There is no room for compromising the power and majesty of the Creator by injecting the limitation of evolution to His creativity.

How is it a limitation? Surely its far more elegant than to believe everything poofed out of nothing.

Ed

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