Evolution: The Doctrine of Delusion

JohnR7 said:

What Bible school do you attend?
Who have you studied under?
What Christian organization are you a part of?
Do your beliefs coincide with their traditional beliefs?

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Jooooohhhhhhnnn, annoying!

I was expecting you to address lucaspa's well-made points!

aeroz19 said:

Jooooohhhhhhnnn, annoying!

I was expecting you to address lucaspa's well-made points!

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we got a funny one here.

JohnR7 said:

I do not consider myself to have any authority.

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Nor does anyone else.

So why do you speak as if you do?

Jet Black: That the bible is not errant is not a "theory", it is a belief.Finally, here is the dictionary definition of "Theory":

1: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

It is the sixth definition that reads:

6: An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

Its continued misusage is what has given the creationist the semanics ammunition, "Evolution may be complex, but it is only a theory". It isn't just a theory.

Quote:

``This word is employed by English writers in a very loose and improper sense. It is with them usually convertible into hypothesis, and hypothesis is commonly used as another term for conjecture. The terms theory and theoretical are properly used in opposition to the terms practice and practical. In this sense, they were exclusively employed by the ancients; and in this sense, they are almost exclusively employed by the Continental philosophers.'' --Sir W. Hamilton

In Response to Post 118 (MisterMystery):

I was responding to post 108, where JohnR7 copied and pasted about thirty quotes from the bible that state what truth is. I said that I didn't want to hear his form of truth, because I likely knew what it was he was going to say before he said it.

Furthermore, from the context of our discussion, a "don't judge my heart" argument at that point would have been inappropriate. I was merely asking him a question that he was not answering.

DirectAnim said:

In Response to Post 118 (MisterMystery):

I was responding to post 108, where JohnR7 copied and pasted about thirty quotes from the bible that state what truth is. I said that I didn't want to hear his form of truth, because I likely knew what it was he was going to say before he said it.

Furthermore, from the context of our discussion, a "don't judge my heart" argument at that point would have been inappropriate. I was merely asking him a question that he was not answering.

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To further explain my position; John in an other argument used a "don't judge me" on a completly irrelevant issue I raised. Therefor, I expected him when he was more directly "attacked" to do it again... Hope this explins what I meant.

In response to those who think that the creation days were long periods of thousands or millions of years

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The greek word used in this passage for a day is the same here as in genesis meaning that in genesis the meaning of the word must be a normal 24 hour day and cannot be a longer period as many suggest who think that the bible needs to be changed to fit with the logic of fallen man, the biblical authority overrides the logic of man in all cases including evolution and if you can alter the biblical meaning to satisfy evolutionist claims then why not alter it to satisfy other things and i think it cheapens the word of god by trusting in mans logic rather than the bible.
In terms or evolution there is no solid evidence to prove it, although most scientists assume that it has already been proven and so they can laugh at those who believe in creation. I think some of the flaws of evolution include that the nature of the universe is highly complex and can be studied and if an all powerful god created it then this is what you would expect but if it was created by chance then an highly organised universe that could be studied would not result but you would expect a random univers e that could not be explained to result. Scientists also put their hope in the power of human logic and the human brain but if the brain is merely the product of chance and evolution then how can you trust it. Thirdly there is an immense dearth of fossils that show the evolutionary links between monkey and man although there a are handful of dubious fossils that claim to be links you would expect there to be hundreds of clear examples which there are not. Fourthly the way man lives is against the principle of evolution as if it were true then the only principle to obey would be survival of the fittest but in reality no one lives by this principle and the biblical precepts that are given in the bible are glaringly obvious in society eg if evolution is true then hitlers attempt to purge the earth of a weaker race would be right and make perfect sense as would things like rape to try and create children(although some try to use complex rhetoric to disprove this and fail) . By believing in evolution man merely becomes a mechanical being with no purpose other than to pass on his genes and the fact that people are constantly searching for god and have a moral conscience are signs that creation not evolution is true as you would expect these traits to result from creation but not evolution.

Before I start, watch your interpunction and grammar. Sometimes your sentences keep going and going and going and that makes for very irritating reading. This is not meant as a personal attack or something, but if you try to be a little more carefull with interpunction and grammar it will help you immensely to get your point across (is this a good sentence?)

Clarity said:

In response to those who think that the creation days were long periods of thousands or millions of years

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The greek word used in this passage for a day is the same here as in genesis meaning that in genesis the meaning of the word must be a normal 24 hour day and cannot be a longer period as many suggest who think that the bible needs to be changed to fit with the logic of fallen man, the biblical authority overrides the logic of man in all cases including evolution and if you can alter the biblical meaning to satisfy evolutionist claims then why not alter it to satisfy other things and i think it cheapens the word of god by trusting in mans logic rather than the bible.

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That in both passages the same Greek word is used doesn't necessarily have any bearing, since the same words may mean different things depending on context.
Furthermore, as already has been argued, logically the way you interpret the bible is an interpretation made by man. So your argument is paradoxal at the least.

In terms or evolution there is no solid evidence to prove it, although most scientists assume that it has already been proven and so they can laugh at those who believe in creation.

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Be my guest to try and disprove evolution in any of the other threads.

I think some of the flaws of evolution include that the nature of the universe is highly complex and can be studied and if an all powerful god created it then this is what you would expect but if it was created by chance then an highly organised universe that could be studied would not result but you would expect a random universe that could not be explained to result.

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Not necessarily. First, seperate evolution from things like the starting of the universe and origin of life. Biological evolution purely explains the diversity of life after the first cell came into being, so making statements about the universe won't help you there.
Secondly, order does not necessarily mean a creator.

Scientists also put their hope in the power of human logic and the human brain but if the brain is merely the product of chance and evolution then how can you trust it.

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Chance and selection, not chance alone. That makes all the difference. Read up on evolution before you start criticizing it.

Thirdly there is an immense dearth of fossils that show the evolutionary links between monkey and man although there a are handful of dubious fossils that claim to be links you would expect there to be hundreds of clear examples which there are not.

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Their are a lot of clear examples. Another thread (don't know which one but I'm sure US will gladly point that out) has a picture of some of those fossils. Care to point out which is human and which is a monkey. If creationism is right, this should be very easy.

Fourthly the way man lives is against the principle of evolution as if it were true then the only principle to obey would be survival of the fittest but in reality no one lives by this principle and the biblical precepts that are given in the bible are glaringly obvious in society eg if evolution is true then hitlers attempt to purge the earth of a weaker race would be right and make perfect sense as would things like rape to try and create children(although some try to use complex rhetoric to disprove this and fail) . By believing in evolution man merely becomes a mechanical being with no purpose other than to pass on his genes and the fact that people are constantly searching for god and have a moral conscience are signs that creation not evolution is true as you would expect these traits to result from creation but not evolution.

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Evolution does not give morality.
However, cooperating may give a survival benefit. If this is the case (and it is, not only among humans), cooperation will keep existing. Please read up on evolution theory before making such claims. I know you make them because you don't know much about it, but they are pretty silly for anyone who knows anything about evolution.

lucaspa said:

I say you turn your back on truth. Remember, evolution comes directly from God's second book. So please explain how it can be a lie.

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I would argue it's His first and only book.

Mistermystery said:

So wait, it's God who deliberatly decives us? You're a better advocate against Christianity then the average Atheist.

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Never the less..... He is right......

When we reject the truth, God can send deception.


and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 shows that it will indeed happen again.

I for one beleive that Evolution thoery is only a precursor to a much more involved, and powerful, delusion that God will send.

Evolution in my opinion is just setting the stage....

And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell you he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil? Again he said, And hear the Word of Jehovah. I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of Heaven were standing on His right hand and on His left. And Jehovah said, Who shall tempt Ahab king of Israel so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spoke saying in one way, and another saying in another way. And a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, I will tempt him. And Jehovah said, With what? And he said, I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, You shall tempt him, and you are able. Go out and do so. And now behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil against you.
(2Ch 18:17-22 MKJV)

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Never the less..... He is right......

When we reject the truth, God can send deception.


and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 shows that it will indeed happen again.

I for one beleive that Evolution thoery is only a precursor to a much more involved, and powerful, delusion that God will send.

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Sounds like a really loving God you've got there.

am talking about the KJV Bible we use today.
When the printing press first came out there were some changes in the English language to adjust and adapt it to the new methoid of printing.

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So how do you even know it was accurately translated? Have you studied the Bibles done by Constantine? Josephus? Have you even looked at or read some of the banned books of the Bible?

Valkhorn said:

Sounds like a really loving God you've got there.

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yep.....and a very serious one too.......

Valkhorn said:

So how do you even know it was accurately translated? Have you studied the Bibles done by Constantine? Josephus? Have you even looked at or read some of the banned books of the Bible?

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DID Josephus or Constantine translate the bible

Hmm.......mebe I do need more study.....I didnt know either of those two did....

Josephus and Constantine did a lot of work to contribute to the Bible as you know it today. Translate was a loose word, but what people fail to grasp is how many changes the Bible has had since Jesus's time.

Jesus died around 33AD. The KJV1611 Bible was written 1,578 years after Jesus's death. A lot can happen in 1,578 years.

Follower of Christ said:

Never the less..... He is right......

When we reject the truth, God can send deception.


and 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 shows that it will indeed happen again.

I for one beleive that Evolution thoery is only a precursor to a much more involved, and powerful, delusion that God will send.

Evolution in my opinion is just setting the stage....

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Ooohh.... a Single out-of-context Bible verse is going to bring down the theory... [/shake in boots]

Let's look at your infamous 2 thess 2 in detail, shall we?

1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hmmm... Now, granted, I'm no Bible scholar, but it certainly looks to me like this is referring to believers in the AntiChrist, not in evolution.

Of course, if I were a Bible scholar, I could probably make this passage "mean" whatever I wanted it to.

Nathan Poe said:

Ooohh.... a Single out-of-context Bible verse is going to bring down the theory... [/shake in boots]

Let's look at your infamous 2 thess 2 in detail, shall we?

1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hmmm... Now, granted, I'm no Bible scholar, but it certainly looks to me like this is referring to believers in the AntiChrist, not in evolution.

Of course, if I were a Bible scholar, I could probably make this passage "mean" whatever I wanted it to.

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Poe.....why dont you READ what I said.......of course, I realize that asking a lot.......i know you prefer to speak first........THEN check to see if you have all the facts......

I said I believe evolution is a leading up to this delusion.
Its a precursor......setting the stage.....

Follower of Christ said:

Poe.....why dont you READ what I said.......of course, I realize that asking a lot.......i know you prefer to speak first........THEN check to see if you have all the facts......

I said I believe evolution is a leading up to this delusion.
Its a precursor......setting the stage.....

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I DO read what you say.... although I prefer to stay awake...

The problem is that The Bible is quite clear that the "delusion" in question is intended solely for the followers of the AntiChrist... who has not yet arrived on the scene.

The second problem is that the vast majority of scientists (evolutionary and otherwise) throughtout history are themselves Christian.

Why is God setting a "precursor" to delude his own people?

As some sort of pre-emptive strike against an enemy who hasn't even shown his face on the battlefield yet?

Admit it, FoC... your interpretation of a single verse simply does not stand up alogside what the rest of the very same chapter so plainly says.

Context is your friend.

Nathan Poe said:

Why is God setting a "precursor" to delude his own people?[/B]

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Did you happen to see that the falling away of the church is ALSO in 2 Thess. 2 ?

Kinda ironic that the church is indeed giving up a literal bible.......and why .....over science and evolution...


Yeah.....Ill stick with MY theory till someone debunks it......