• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Those who have studied evolution from sources other than Creationist sites are constantly annoyed by the misunderstanding of basic scientific concepts tossed out by YECs. Even when AiG tells people that they should no longer say the "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven", we still hear it all the time. So, I decided to post a good description of why evolution is both a fact and a theory. Remember folks, you don't prove theories. Theories are not the types of things that are proven. Here it goes:

"When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms. - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution. - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution says this:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.
Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists."

See here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
 

Delta One

Active Member
Apr 8, 2005
331
16
38
✟23,062.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi Vance,

As much as I hate to disappoint you, but calls for authority hold very little water when the people themselves are hardcore evolutionists who would still continue in their belief of evolutionism no matter what evidence is presented against it. In fact, the new information theory is really at heads with evolutionary theory and fits in nicely with the creationary model.

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact.

As I have stated before to you, consensus proves nothing in science -- history provides evidence of this. Several hundred years ago, all the scientists said that the idea that the earth was flat was a fact and everybody knew that the idea of a geocentric solar system was a fact -- it was truth. This was until - although Coopernicus brought it up, Galileo really contributed to the idea more - one man challanged the "facts" of science and showed them eventually to be false. This single historical evidence destroys your entire argument, i.e. that just because most scientists believe evolutionism it must be true, or a fact.

The whole idea of evolutionism is one not based on science, but faith as Dr Loren Eiseley (an evolutionist anthropolgist) points out:

"With the failure of these many efforts science was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of having to postulate theories of living origins which it could not demonstrate. After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past." [Emphasis added]

From The Secret of Life in The Immense Journey.

In otherwords, what Dr Eiseley is saying, that they are taking something that they couldn't even prove now, in the present, and assuming it to be true by faith into the distant unobservable past with no intelligence acting upon it [for humanistic evolutionism].

Even more interesting is how L. Harrison Matthews puts the true nature of evolutionism in the Introduction to Darwin's The Origin of Species (1971):

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved theory - is it then a science or a faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation - both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof."

God Bless,

Delta One.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A heathen site? I don't recall them ever professing any heathen belief.

Delta: This is not an appeal to authority or popularity, it is just saying that the accepted position of the scientific community is that it is both a fact and a theory. So, THAT is what those opposed to evolution must contend with, they can't just say "it is just a theory" and think this is an argument at all. Much less state that it is an "unproven theory", which is a non-starter to begin with, since theories are NEVER proven.

Lastly, the whole "no new information" thing just doesn't work, as Gluadys has shown very well on this forum. It is just bad science and another "fall back" position for Creationists after having to admit first that micro-evolution happens, then that even speciation happens. This latest gambit to keep their scientific head above water does not work either.

There was a good bit on the new information idea, I will try and track it down.

What is most important, though, is that we start talking about this "on the same page". If a Creationist wishes to contend that the theory is not the best explanation, fine, they can say why. But then they still have to deal with the "fact" aspect.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
TwinCrier said:
A theory is a hypothesis, an idea, an attempt to explain. A theory may utilize facts, but it's still based on presumptions as well. It is conjecture at best and deception at worst.

Which just shows you don't know what a scientific theory is, and are just using the layman's definition. Did you even read the OP?
 
Upvote 0

CPman2004

The Carnivorous Plant Evangelist
Aug 11, 2003
3,777
285
39
Kentucky
✟6,488.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I contend that Evoultion is not even a proper theory. I would like to challenge any who has $1.99 to download Greg Bahnsen's lecture, "Is Evoultion Scientific?" Which can be found at http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=229&2=-1

The article posted in the OP just screams to me, "I am dogma, obey me or I shall make you foolish in the eyes of the scientific community!" A theory being dogmatic, just doesn't compute. Theories are not ment to be dogmatic. Anyway Bahnsen explains it better then I could. However, if you don't want to pay for a wonderful lecture I would perhapes try to explain his veiws, but I just don't have the time to do it now. So I would highly suggest a person with an open mind to download it and listen.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are right, a theory is never dogmatic. But see that it is pointing out that evolution is a fact as well as a theory. The fact of evolution is that species have developed from earlier species over time. The evidence for this is SO dramatic that it meets the definition of a fact. The theory is something else. This is simply the best explanation to explain the fact of evolutionary development. This is NOT presented dogmatically, just that it is the most convincing we have. And, our understanding of these mechanics that make up the theory is getting clearer all the time, so the theory itself is always being refined and clarified. This is a good thing.

What is a bit ironic is that the ID guys (most of them at least) accept the fact of evolutionary development of billions of years, but reject the mechanics of the theory. Other Creationists seem to accept the mechanics of the theory (mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, etc), but say that it can not result in macro changes.
 
Upvote 0

Crusadar

Criado de Cristo
Mar 28, 2003
485
12
MN
Visit site
✟23,185.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Vance said: Lastly, the whole "no new information" thing just doesn't work, as Gluadys has shown very well on this forum.

Really? Could it be her thread on misinformation? Well now lets look at the very well shown part again shall we - now that I found my lost responses to her ranting. And besides I should have a bit more free time now that I'm in between jobs to look through my stack of references.
 
Upvote 0

Delta One

Active Member
Apr 8, 2005
331
16
38
✟23,062.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi again Vance,

it is just saying that the accepted position of the scientific community is that it is both a fact and a theory.

Which is an appeal to popularity and consensus. That may not be what you are trying to say, but these are your words. There is no difference between most of the scientific community believing in evolution then most of the scientific community hundreds of years ago believing that the universe was geocentric.

Lastly, the whole "no new information" thing just doesn't work, as Gluadys has shown very well on this forum. It is just bad science and another "fall back" position for Creationists after having to admit first that micro-evolution happens, then that even speciation happens. This latest gambit to keep their scientific head above water does not work either.

Why would one of the world's leading information scientists who has developed new laws and theories in information science, Dr Werner Gitt, then believe that such an idea denies evolutionism?

What is most important, though, is that we start talking about this "on the same page". If a Creationist wishes to contend that the theory is not the best explanation, fine, they can say why. But then they still have to deal with the "fact" aspect.

You've just contradicted yourself. Firstly, evolutionism is known as the "General Theory of Evolution" (GTE) or the theory of evolution. Notice the word theory, and how you said that "theories are never proven." Hence, evolution cannot be proven.

It's really just a matter of blind faith as to whether one believes that evolution is a fact, as Ken Ham points out:

"I once debated with a geology professor from an American university on a radio program. He said that evolution was real science because evolutionists were prepared to continually change their theories as they found new data. He said that creation was not science because a creationist's views were set by the Bible and, therefore, were not subject to change.

I answered, "The reason scientific theories change is because we don't know everything, isn't it? We don't have all the evidence."
"Yes, that's right," he said.
I replied, "But, we will never know everything."
"That's true," he answered.
I then stated, "We will always continue to find new evidence."
"Quite correct," he said.
I replied, "That means we can't be sure about anything."
"Right," he said.
"That means we can't be sure about evolution."
"Oh, no! Evolution is a fact," he blurted out.

He was caught by his own logic. He was demonstrating how his view was determined by his bias. Models of science are subject to chage for both creationists and evolutionists. But, the beliefs that these models are built on are not. The problem is that most scientists do not realize that it is the belief (or religion) of evolution that is the basis for the scientific models (the interpretations, or stories) used to attempt an explanation of the present. Evolutionists are not prepared to change their actual belief that all life can be explained by natural processes and that no God is involved (or even needed). Evolution is the religion to which they are committed. Christians need to wake up to this. Evolution is a religion; it is not science!"

I also agree with TwinCrier. Evolution is a just a hypothesis with some observational evidence (I do not refer to molecules to man evolution - just changes in a given population - although NONE of these have been seen to increase the amount of information (specified complexity) in the genome). Any such hypothesis is promoted to a theory. A theory that applies to everything without exception and with overwhelming support by observation and experimental validity is then called a law (e.g. laws of thermodynamics) -- but only one observation is required to falsify it and scrap it as a law.

The evidence for this is SO dramatic that it meets the definition of a fact.

Oh really? Why, then, are there missing links from one kind to another? For example, from an ape-like creature to a human? This molecules to man evolution is far from being proven. It's just a man made fallible belief system that tries to explain the evidence of the present. It is far from a "fact". If this amount of certainity that makes up a "fact" is applied to everything in today's society, then everyone who goes to court being accused of a crime would be totally screwed...
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. No, it is not an appeal to popularity, but it is a DEFINITION based on the consensus. I am not presenting this for "truth of the matter asserted" as we say in court, but only for to explain what the consensus IS. This prevents people from mischaracterizing what "scientists say".

2. I will repost an important article on how the "information theory" makes no sense in the realm of evolutionary development.

3. Theories are not proven. Ever. But by the word "evolution" we meant two things. First, the theory of evolution, which is the best explanation for the data that we have. The other meaning of evolution is the fact itself of the development. We know the development has occurred, the evidence for that has risen to the level that it shouls be considered a fact, and is considered a fact by nearly everyone who knows the evidence. We can debate whether this is a valid point or not in another thread, but the point here is that there are TWO aspects of evolution, the evolutionary development itself over time and the EXPLANATION of that development. Only the latter is considered a theory.

4. The dialogue you presented shows the importance of realizing the difference between the two aspects of evolution. It is indeed a theory, and one that can not be proven, no more than the theory of gravity can be proven. But there is also the FACT of evolutionary development, and that is what the scientist was getting to. Consider gravity. We have the "fact" of gravity, bodies of mass are attracted to one another. This fact is evidenced when we throw something up it comes down, etc. But there is also the THEORY of gravitation, which attempts to explain WHY masses are attracted to each other. This theory can change a dozen times, but it does not do away with the FACT that bodies of mass are attracted to each other.

THe same is true of evolution. The evidences for evolutionary development over billions of years is so dramatic that only those with a very strong religious reason to doubt it do not accept it. Thus it rises the level of a scientific fact, by the definitions of a fact given in the OP. But there is also the theory of evolution to explain that fact. Even if the theory is incorrect, and discovered to be entirely unworkable tomorrow, the fact of evolutionary change from earlier species to our current species over billions of years will still exist.
 
Upvote 0

ChrisS

Senior Veteran
May 20, 2004
2,270
50
✟25,170.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
However Macro-evolution is not, there are no missing links , transitional fossils don't prove anything, and saying that micro-evolution should eventually lead to macro-evolution doesn't prove anything, but science can't prove anything so I guess that's alright.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

What would you consider a "missing link"?

Would you say a link that has features of both species it is thought to "link" and is actually found in between those two species in time?

In short, what type of traits would you expect to find in a "missing link" between humans and an "ape-like" ancestor?
 
Upvote 0

ChrisS

Senior Veteran
May 20, 2004
2,270
50
✟25,170.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others

You tell me, what is your view on what a missing link is.
 
Upvote 0

ChrisS

Senior Veteran
May 20, 2004
2,270
50
✟25,170.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Vance said:
I asked you first.

You said they don't exist, so you should have an idea of what they would be if they did exist.

A link between dinosaurs and humans, or humans and monkeys that has evidence of that animal evolving into a human. That's to put it simply, nw your interpretation?
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, a link between "monkeys and humans" isn't what evolution says happened, but I will treat that as a link between humans and an earlier ape-like ancestor, since the evidence indicates that humans and apes both descended from a common ape-like ancestor. Fine.

Now, what exactly would such a "missing link" look like? We have to know what would qualify as such a link for you before we can determine if one exists. How about a fossil of a species with traits that are in apes, but not humans AND with traits that are in humans, but not apes? Would that qualify?

(I ignored the "link between dinosaurs and humans, since no one says that humans evolved from dinosaurs).

Here is a little hint. Don't get your information about evolution from Creationist sources.
 
Upvote 0

ChrisS

Senior Veteran
May 20, 2004
2,270
50
✟25,170.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others

Depends on your point of view I suppose. You believe that fish came onto land, then became dinosaurs, and then became mammals which became humans, corrects? Well then what connects these different species together?
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ChrisS said:
Depends on your point of view I suppose. You believe that fish came onto land, then became dinosaurs, and then became mammals which became humans, corrects? Well then what connects these different species together?

No, that is not what we believe happened.

Listen, it sounds like you have some serious reading up to do about what evolutionary biologists believe actually happened, what evidence we have to support this, etc.

Would you be surprised to hear that there are hominid fossils with a mix of features of both humans and apes? Traits that humans have that apes do not have (so it is not an ape) AND traits that apes have that humans do not have (so it is not a human)? Such a mix of features that even Creation scientists disagree with each other over whether it is an ape or a human?
 
Upvote 0

ChrisS

Senior Veteran
May 20, 2004
2,270
50
✟25,170.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others

Nope, because I've heard it before, and it's just an interpretation of the facts, that's what it comes down to. Apparently you and the guys in the teen forum have some disagreeing. They claim that we arose from the sea, maybe not from fish but from some sea dwelling creature.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.