Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

Ohioprof said:

That's just your opinion. Same-sex relationships are not perversion. You continue to level judgments at others, on the basis of no knowledge of us at all.

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Yes, I believe, in my opinion, same-sex relationships pervert the idea of what marriage really is. Same-sex couples can never become one flesh with each other.

But calling sexual immorality evil is from the words of Jesus, not from my own.

naotmaa said:

So you don't have any evidence, outside of the bible, that homosexuality is wrong in any way?

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I have no evidence, outside the authority of Jesus, why fornication is wrong.

The Spirit calls fornication and other similar things immoral.

"But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Corinthians 3 - 4

The Lord is the Spirit and the Spirit gives life. Jesus is the life. To go to the Father you must go through Jesus, who is our life. "I am the truth, the way, and the life, all who to go the Father must go through me." Jesus is our life and we share in His life. Jesus is in us and we are in Jesus. He dwells within us, we are a Holy Temple of God, in which the Spirit dwells. We are called to live Holy and blameless before God. Jesus can't deny himself, therefore he is always faithful. Our life is hidden in Christ. We must live with the Spirit, who is the Lord, and in step with the Spirit. This same Spirit was sealed in us when we believed in the gospel preached to us. Christ is God's glory and our life is hidden with that glory. Since we share ourselves with Christ, we share in his glory, and we must live for the glory of God, doing the will of the Father, who is in Heaven."

JohnChapter14 said:

Yes, I believe, in my opinion, same-sex relationships pervert the idea of what marriage really is.

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Some thoughts:

• Do you mean that it is same-sex marriage that 'perverts' traditional marriage?
  • If so, what is your stance on same-sex couples who have not taken their vows?
  • If not, how do unmarried same-sex couples pervert traditional marriage?
• The above aside, why do you have this opinion?

JohnChapter14 said:

But calling sexual immorality evil is from the words of Jesus, not from my own.

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Perhaps, but surely you must show that homosexuality is sexually immoral before you start casting stones?

To the one who said Bibles are so expensive, stores like Walmart and even some drugstores have paperback Bibles for cheap. Also, I've found many Bibles at thrift stores. They are out there. They don't have to be leather bound, gold edged editions.

Now, about the one flesh thing: One flesh refers to a man leaving his family and creating a new family unit with his wife. Nothing magical about it. It can be a beautiful and almost sacred thing, but that is not necessarily the meaning of the phrase. Jesus was talking about divorce, anyway.

Matthew 19:3-12 And the Pharisees came near to Him, tempting Him, and saying to Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every reason? 4 But answering, He said to them, Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning "created them male and female"? Gen. 1:27 5 And He said, "For this reason a man shall leave father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." Gen. 2:24 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let not man separate. 7 They said to Him, Why then did Moses command to "give a bill of divorce," "and to put her away"? Deut. 24:1 8 He said to them, In view of your hardheartedness, Moses allowed you to put away your wives. But from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery. 10 His disciples said to Him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. 11 But He said to them, Not all make room for this Word, but those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who made eunuchs of themselves for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. He who is able to receive, let him receive it.

The letter of the law kills, but the spirit gives life. And remember, we use the term "marry" to mean a joining of any two things. Flavors "marry" in a marinade or casserole. And so on. Let's not get hung up on a word or an illustration.

Libre

Wiccan_Child said:

Some thoughts:

• Do you mean that it is same-sex marriage that 'perverts' traditional marriage?
  • If so, what is your stance on same-sex couples who have not taken their vows?
  • If not, how do unmarried same-sex couples pervert traditional marriage?
• The above aside, why do you have this opinion?

Perhaps, but surely you must show that homosexuality is sexually immoral before you start casting stones?

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Matthew 15

17Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 6:13[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods," but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.[/FONT]

Wiccan_Child said:

Some thoughtserhaps, but surely you must show that homosexuality is sexually immoral before you start casting stones?

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Is not the authority of Jesus good enough for you? Or do you want to use fleshly reasoning over Spiritual?

Those who live according to the Spirit must keep in step with the spirit. For the Spirit gives life and is our life, as we live by the Spirit. The Spirit is against immorality, for if we do such things, we are not living according to the Spirit. The Lord is the Spirit.

Is this not good enough for you? You argue that I am wrong to say homosexuality is wrong, but I say to you that it is not in-line with the Spirit and those who live according to the Spirit must put it behind them, for they no longer live for themselves but for Jesus who lives within them.

I know some spirit-filled Christians who are also gay. Two are pastors. They are not immoral. They are in committed relationships. They love Jesus. They exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. Can you define "moral"?

Libre said:

I know some spirit-filled Christians who are also gay. Two are pastors. They are not immoral. They are in committed relationships. They love Jesus. They exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. Can you define "moral"?

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People can be spirit filled and still use their freedom to partake in sin. King David is a good example.

JohnChapter14 said:

Matthew 15

17Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 6:13[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Foods for the belly, and the belly for foods," but God will bring to nothing both it and them. But the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.[/FONT]

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These two verses merely show that sexual immorality is immoral. They do not answer my questions, nor do they tell us what is sexually immoral.
To reiterate:
Some thoughts:

• Do you mean that it is same-sex marriage that 'perverts' traditional marriage?
  • If so, what is your stance on same-sex couples who have not taken their vows?
  • If not, how do unmarried same-sex couples pervert traditional marriage?
• The above aside, why do you have this opinion?

urely you must show that homosexuality is sexually immoral before you start casting stones?

JohnChapter14 said:

Is not the authority of Jesus good enough for you?

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I do not believe he existed, divine or otherwise. So no, the 'authority of Jesus' is insufficient.

JohnChapter14 said:

Or do you want to use fleshly reasoning over Spiritual?

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Loaded question: you presume this dichotomy exists. Indeed, you presume that 'spiritual' exists.
There is only humanities logical rationale, and humanities irrational faith. I'm inclined to defer to the former.

While it's nice to see all this scripture being quoted, wasn't the point of this thread about discussing evidence of why homosexuality is "wrong" without using the bible as reference (which unfortunately means everything Jesus said is out as well?).

Before I became a Christian and cared about the Bible I didn't think homosexuality was okay. Does that count for anything?

Conscience- didn't feel right.

I have no evidence, outside the authority of Jesus, why fornication is wrong.

The Spirit calls fornication and other similar things immoral.

"But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 Corinthians 3 - 4

The Lord is the Spirit and the Spirit gives life. Jesus is the life. To go to the Father you must go through Jesus, who is our life. "I am the truth, the way, and the life, all who to go the Father must go through me." Jesus is our life and we share in His life. Jesus is in us and we are in Jesus. He dwells within us, we are a Holy Temple of God, in which the Spirit dwells. We are called to live Holy and blameless before God. Jesus can't deny himself, therefore he is always faithful. Our life is hidden in Christ. We must live with the Spirit, who is the Lord, and in step with the Spirit. This same Spirit was sealed in us when we believed in the gospel preached to us. Christ is God's glory and our life is hidden with that glory. Since we share ourselves with Christ, we share in his glory, and we must live for the glory of God, doing the will of the Father, who is in Heaven."

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it can be shown that fornication (the act of having multiple sexual partners before committing to one partner for life) is a. unnatural, and b. immoral, without using the Bible.

it is unnatural, because the brain releases bonding chemicals (oxytocin) in both males and females to enable the forming of long-term relationships. this is distinct from the pleasure chemicals that cause the effect of "falling in love". research evidence shows that relationships based solely on sexual attraction and not on long-term commitment tend to last a shorter time. this shows that humans are designed to form long-term relationships based on what we call "love" as part of our mating practices.

secondly, it can be shown that fornication is immoral without using the Bible. because relationships based on sexual attraction without long-term commitment tend to last a shorter time, we increase the risk of causing emotional, psychological, and spiritual harm to ourselves and our partners by forming too close a physical connection at this time. we also increase the risk of physical harm to ourselves and our partners by sleeping with multiple sexual partners and increasing the risk of exposure to STI's. such relationships can also lead us to see other people as sex objects and to treat others with less respect and dignity than they deserve as humans.

the question that remains to be answered is, what biological and moral evidence is there, outside of Scripture, showing that a homosexual relationship is sinful?

Wiccan_Child said:

These two verses merely show that sexual immorality is immoral. They do not answer my questions, nor do they tell us what is sexually immoral.
To reiterate:
Some thoughts:

• Do you mean that it is same-sex marriage that 'perverts' traditional marriage?
  • If so, what is your stance on same-sex couples who have not taken their vows?
  • If not, how do unmarried same-sex couples pervert traditional marriage?
• The above aside, why do you have this opinion?

urely you must show that homosexuality is sexually immoral before you start casting stones?


I do not believe he existed, divine or otherwise. So no, the 'authority of Jesus' is insufficient.


Loaded question: you presume this dichotomy exists. Indeed, you presume that 'spiritual' exists.
There is only humanities logical rationale, and humanities irrational faith. I'm inclined to defer to the former.

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I haven't condemned anyone on here (to death and condemned anyone because of sins they've done). I've just pointed out what is a sin and asked people to repent.

Repent means to changes ones heart/attitude towards something.

God Almighty is not some dichotomy that contradicts himself.
The Spirit does exist and I would be careful to blasphame against the Holy Spirit, because God will not forgive you for that. God will forgive you if you turn to him and repent for being a pagen believer, but he won't forgive you if you deny the works of the Holy Spirit within others.

If you do not believe in God, explain prophecy if you are so inclined.
Prophecy is a proof that Yahwah exists.

Concerning 'perverted'
3. Marked by misinterpretation or distortion
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pervert


I give reason according to the authority of Jesus that same-sex relations are wrong and you do not believe me.

So now it doesn't matter what the Jesus says about the Spirit? Is that what it comes down to? It doesn't matter what Jesus says---but rather, what the body says?

Homosexuality is immoral because it is a perverted form of sexuality.

I have read that Native Americans considered homosexuals to be "two-spirited" people, and they were a gift to the tribe. I found the following, which is material by and for homosexuals (nothing offensive here).

http://www.bidstrup.com/phobiahistory.htm

FYI

Libre