Everything happens for a reason or free will?

dysert said:

You have a mouse in your pocket?

What about him?

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Physcho Sarah and I do not believe in God (well, I don't believe in the Abrahamic God, I'm agnostic on divinity in general, and just see no reason to believe it). Therefore, we do not believe in God.

God put Job through a lot of trials, really for no purpose.

Chany said:

Physcho Sarah and I do not believe in God (well, I don't believe in the Abrahamic God, I'm agnostic on divinity in general, and just see no reason to believe it). Therefore, we do not believe in God.

God put Job through a lot of trials, really for no purpose.

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No purpose that you can discern. Whether you believe in God or not, I assume you'd admit that you don't have all knowledge.

dysert said:

No purpose that you can discern. Whether you believe in God or not, I assume you'd admit that you don't have all knowledge.

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I don't admit all knowledge. However, argument from ignorance is not a valid argument.

In a philosophical discussion, quotes from a holy book does not stand as valid premises. The only time it can be used is if, within the book itself, their is a logical argument.

PsychoSarah's (PS, is it alright if I don't put "Psycho" in front of "Sarah"? I don't like putting Psycho in front of your name, it's like I'm insulting you) original claim was, "Sometimes crap happens and no one benefits".

The point raised is that there are clear cases where no one benefits from horrible disasters, or evil in general, such as Job. It can be argued that its purpose was to teach us about sin and evil, but what does it teach us? That we don't understand why "Sometimes crap happens and no one benefits" when there is evil and trust in God?

It's a cop-out way of dealing with the problem, specifically the problem of evil.

HiddenMe said:

If you dont believe in God then your following question isn't really an honest question...

Satan told God the only reasons Job worshipped God was because he was so blessed so God let Satan do what he wanted to Job except kill him. Job ended up with nothing...everything he had was destroyed YET still kept faith in God. This story not only shows Christians everywhere to keep faith even when you feel at loss. In the end, Satan was wrong.

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Forgetting the morality of, in effect, killing people to prove a point-

Didn't God say beforehand that Job was an upright, perfect man? God would already know the answer to Satan's challenge. He already knew Job would not deny him, so why bother?

HiddenMe said:

This is one area about God, I truly cannot understand. Does everything happen the way it is supposed to or our choices depict our future?
For example, I always thought my sister getting pregnant in high school was in God's plan for her. There's a lot of good that has came out of it but bad too. However, my Dad said it wasn't in God's plan...
What do y'all think? Does everything happen for a reason or what? How do we ever know if we are in line with God's plan for us?

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may i ask what you mean by free will? do you mean the fact that you make choices or that free will involves some inherent unpredictability ?

HiddenMe said:

He had to make it happen to show US (people) that a righteous man should still have faith even when at loss. It had to be written in the bible. He was also proving to Satan (who didn't know the outcome) that Job was righteous.
Job was a good man. That doesn't mean only good things will happen to him.

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If God told him that Job was a good and righteous man, Satan, as someone who knows God to be omniscient, would know that whatever God said was true. Therefore, Satan had no reason to disbelieve God, and no reason to test Job.

Also, there's a difference between trust in something reliable and blind faith. Job's part of two much bigger problems: the problem of evil and the problem of predestination/responsibility.

Chany said:

I don't admit all knowledge. However, argument from ignorance is not a valid argument.

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You are making a conclusion despite your ignorance. That's what's not valid.

In a philosophical discussion, quotes from a holy book does not stand as valid premises. The only time it can be used is if, within the book itself, their is a logical argument.

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Thanks for telling me the rules, but I didn't quote from a holy book.

PsychoSarah's (PS, is it alright if I don't put "Psycho" in front of "Sarah"? I don't like putting Psycho in front of your name, it's like I'm insulting you) original claim was, "Sometimes crap happens and no one benefits".

The point raised is that there are clear cases where no one benefits from horrible disasters, or evil in general, such as Job. It can be argued that its purpose was to teach us about sin and evil, but what does it teach us? That we don't understand why "Sometimes crap happens and no one benefits" when there is evil and trust in God?

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I haven't disagreed with the point. I'm just making a second point that we don't know everything. Yes, crap happens, and maybe no one benefits. The fact is, though, we can't be sure because of our ignorance.

It's a cop-out way of dealing with the problem, specifically the problem of evil.

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The problem of evil has been around since the dawn of time. There's no good answer for it, and I'm certainly not smart enough to try.

HiddenMe said:

Do you not know Satan? He is evil! He is twisted! He was so determined to prove God wrong! Yes he knows how powerful and omniscient God is but nonetheless doesn't care! Remember he wanted to be God so he obviously thought he had a chance and to this day still does. He has no idea he will one day be put in the lake of fire along with non believers, demons, and so on for eternity. He thinks he still has a chance. He is the one who is actually proud that you are a non believer. However, I am so grateful that you are on here asking questions! Clearing up lies the devil has installed in you!

All I'm saying about Job is God's plan is perfect. In the end, if you don't have faith or believe then our arguments can't technically always be on the same page..

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It's funny how Satan can instill lies into me, but can't read over someone's shoulder to read a book that tells him his fate, or go onto this website and read about himself.

You're humanizing a being that doesn't play by our rules. Angels, if they existed, would have no physical limitations upon their intellect; so long as God did not withhold anything from them (and there's no reason he would), they could practically be omniscient, except in cases of future behavior of sentient beings (though they could probably predict the outcome with a good success rate). Satan, as an angel, would have known it was impossible to defeat God. He can't be at fault for physical sins; you can't murder an immortal spiritual being, much less have sex with one. His sin would either be envy or it would pride.

If you're wondering how a non-believer would know this, bear in mind two things:

1) Atheists generally score higher on tests of faith.

2) If this discussion were taking place one or two years ago, I would have been on your side (well, maybe not entirely, but you get the idea). I recounced my faith a few months ago as part of a three year faith journey (though I've had my doubts for about a year). I've only told my mother directly. My father probably knows from her, which would explain all the Islam-coversion jokes he's been making recently. No one else, not even my atheist friends, knows.

I agree on the sentiment of Biblical stories, and believe we should move on. Which problem would you like discuss: predestisnation/determinism vs. free will, or the problem of evil (I suggest the first, as a large part of the problem of evil deals with the first, plus there's already a thread here).

Just pick the answer that suits you best.

This question is not answered by reason.