Even Jesus did not heal at will ...

msbojingles said:

Just as a side note - the word for "faith" in that passage is a different word with different connotations than the word we normally think of as "faith" throughout the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Thanks. However, I was more focusing on the 'could not' portion of that passage.

FaultySurplus said:

Thanks. However, I was more focusing on the 'could not' portion of that passage.

Click to expand...

I understand - wasn't trying to take away from that.

But if people look up that passage, it had to do more with their rejection of Jesus. He "could not" because they refused.

oh yeah and I'm not wof! lol

Jimbeaux said:

Even Jesus did not heal at will …

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
​

What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

Click to expand...

Don't agree Jim. I think of it as He healed when He chose to. But absolutely, He followed the direction of the Father.

God bless.

The Lord is my banner said:

Thankfully our Lord doesn't violate us, so if we say to Him that we don't want healing then I suppose we won't be forced to receive it, but goodness, why oh why would we do that???

Click to expand...

I can think of a few circumstances where I can honestly say I wouldn't desire to be healed.

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.

Trish1947 said:

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.

Click to expand...

And yet God does not heal everyone that we pray for. So how does that fit?

Jimbeaux said:

Even Jesus did not heal at will …

Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5.19)
​

What do you think?

~Jim

I would rather defend to the death your right to say stupid stuff than to have to listen to it.​

Click to expand...

You know, when I read this, I read it as if the Father is Christ's example. Consider Paul when he said, I am imitating Christ. This seems to me to be a similar thing, Christ saying I am imitating the Father. The Father then is all about Love is He not? So the imitation is one of Love and accepting the authority of God.

Let me see if I can say it another way. I believe it is I Timothy where Paul talks about making requests, prayers, praises, something like that. Why would he list them if they were all the same thing? Seems to me that prayer is accepting God's authority over everything. Look at the Lord's prayer, it's about God's authority and accepting that authority over everything, even our requests.

If this is true, then Christ could only do what the authority of God dictated, no matter what it was. He was imitating the authority of God. Doing only those things that God's authority permitted. We can do no different, though we often try. We make our requests as if they were God's will, but never once pray, accepting God's authority on the matter. In essence, we set ourselves up to be God. Making requests and assuming they are of God because we are of God. Seems to me that Christ is pretty clear here when He says, that it is only God's authority that He fulfills. He imitates the heart of God.

Just a thought for what it's worth.

Trish1947 said:

I do not believe when looking at our Father to see his nature, that we would ever be given the compassion to pray for someones healing, when someone has asked you to pray, and having to say...wait...I just checked with my Father, He's not healing you or extending any compassion, so the answer is no. That is leterally what is being implied here. When Jesus saw what His Father was doing was showing compassion and willingness to heal.

Click to expand...

Let's look at this a moment. We have a "friend" who is an alcoholic, usually homeless because of alcohol. He has gone to several churches for healing. He believes he is healed, and yet he stays sober for only a few weeks at best ususally more like a day or two. The alcohol is literally killing him. So we have people requesting to God that he be healed. We have him believing in that healing. We have him confessing that healing. Why isn't he healed? Or would you consider him healed even though he is still an alcoholic? What is the missing ingredient?

razzelflabben said:

Let's look at this a moment. We have a "friend" who is an alcoholic, usually homeless because of alcohol. He has gone to several churches for healing. He believes he is healed, and yet he stays sober for only a few weeks at best ususally more like a day or two. The alcohol is literally killing him. So we have people requesting to God that he be healed. We have him believing in that healing. We have him confessing that healing. Why isn't he healed? Or would you consider him healed even though he is still an alcoholic? What is the missing ingredient?

Click to expand...

How does anyone know what a person actually believes in their heart? That's one thing that many people have said, that they believed this, or they believe that, because they confessed it. Nobody knows what a person actually believes in their heart. I don't know what all my husband believes from his heart and we have been married for 46 years.
The heart of man is God area. And I cannot answer this because I have no idea whats present in the heart, and what the reasons are. But God knows. Not all confessions made, is from the heart. Alot of times it's nothing more than mental assent, with confession from the mouth, with very little to do with actual heart level belief.

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

FaultySurplus said:

I can think of a few circumstances where I can honestly say I wouldn't desire to be healed.

Click to expand...

I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."

FaultySurplus said:

And yet God does not heal everyone that we pray for. So how does that fit?

Click to expand...

That is true, but God's will is not always performed in this world, and I don't have an answer.

probinson said:

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

Click to expand...

Preach it brother!

probinson said:

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

Click to expand...

I don't believe the topic is if Jesus wills to heal. It is His will, but was He able to always carry out that will. He did not, because not everybody was healed.

The Lord is my banner said:

I just can't grasp that at all, can you help me see why you would say that?
Having suffered both emotional and physical pain, at times in extreme measure, I cannot imagine why anybody would ever say, "No healing thanks."

Click to expand...

I gave up my attachments to this life over two decades ago. It was only when I had my own family that I found a reason to stay, but at some point, my kids will grow and move on. I'll no longer be needed and it will be time for me to move on.

Should I reach that point and some life-threatening sickness come on me, I can honestly say my desire is to depart and I would not seek healing. I can't imagine any reason why I'd want to stay.

Jesus said to sell all we have and give to the poor. Seriously doubt He would be in the business of fattening selfish fat cats and making sure they have a new Lexus or "Beamer" every year....

Balance said:

But instead of taking the time and effort to build a close relationship with Father and get to a place that we know His voice and see what He does - we make educated guesses at what is happening, most times not even knowing if something is or is not God's will - we see someone who doesn't get healed and instead of hearing specifically from God on the matter - we just assume that if they didn't get healed, God must not want them to be.

Click to expand...

I dig it!

So let me ask - would it be wisdom to say, that unless we had a specific word of knowledge about a person to be healed, or unless by the prompting of Holy Spirit to pray for someone's healing, there's no assurance that a healing will occur? I mean, hearing specifically from God would be that - a word of knowledge or a prompting of Holy Spirit, yes?

Thanks all!

probinson said:

To believe that Jesus did not heal at will, you would have to believe that Jesus' will and the Father's will are (or could be) different.

Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Spirit), are ONE. Therefore, they can not have contradictory wills.

So as it pertains to this topic, there was never a time when Jesus wanted to heal someone and the Father didn't, or vice versa.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

Faith is not self-effort but rather from within. Since faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action, we are focus on our faith based on obedience to holiness, adding to our faith and fruit of the spirit through grace. Working on of faith means nothing if you don't act on your faith. If you don't act, then you don't have faith.

Therefore, Faith is a confidence that God will actually someday heal us here on earth or in Heaven, that He will actually some day make us perfect and free from sin, that He will actually some day bring us face to face with Christ and make us like Him, that He will actually someday reward us with eternal reward, that He will someday actually take us to a place He’s prepared for us, none of which we have ever seen. Nor has anybody ever come back to tell us about it. So it’s a matter of hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.

Faith is the title deed to the future. Faith is the foundation believing that the promises of God yet to come to pass will come to pass.

Faith is indeed the title deed for things hoped for. Saving faith is placed in something that was promised to happen. Faith is believing something that God promises will happen, not because we will it to happen, but because He PROMISED THEY will happen.

It is the faith that God has the ability and the will to fulfill His promises, that He can be trusted.

FAITH is simple but people make it so difficult in order to make "faith" more than it is. People have made the word "Faith" more complicated than it should be. God wants to conform us to the image of Christ that He brings a purposeful discipline into our lives, He brings training into our lives through difficulty. There are many people who never see past the pain because they’re self-absorbed, they’re self-centered, they’re caught up in their own comfort. The main thing to understand and remember is that Jesus is OUR SHEPHERD that He will supply all our needs (Phil. 4:19) and that He knows everything about our lives (Ps. 139:3), cares about us (1 Pet. 5:7), has the power for every difficulty (Ps. 62:11), is perfecting US to be like Christ (Phil. 1:6), and that nothing escapes Him (Ps. 147:5), that will lead us to be stable, not anxious living.

JimfromOhio said:

I disagree.

Click to expand...

With what specifically?

Do you believe that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit can have different wills?

We have to remember its not how to believe but rather who to believe in. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian.

This is not about faith in relation to "getting what you want" but faith in WHO and at HIS will. Our self-interest motives conduct even though it is part of our fallen nature, the cross is a symbol of the selfless, others-centered life of Christ.