Evangelists arrested at 'Gay Games'

dlamberth · Jul 23, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
I didn't. If the Holy Spirit convicts your heart, then so be it. John is straightforward; he says that you must live as Jesus did, else you aren't following Christ but living a lie. And Paul explained it pretty clearly, didn't he in Hebrews 12. You're either sons and daughters or illegitimate children; entitled but denying your birthright.

I think your right on. But I think very few Christians live the full Gospel. "Poll after Poll" as Ronald Sider notes, " that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."

Besides abortion, to be consistent in living the full Gospel, I think Christians need to takes a stand against capital punishment, nuclear weapons, hunger, genocide, growing homelessness, and other anti-life conditions. But they aren't doing that.

Year after year for the past 30 years, as churches have gotten richer, the average tithe has dropped. Only 6% of born-again Christians give the traditional tithe of 10%.

.

Lanakila · Jul 23, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
I didn't. If the Holy Spirit convicts your heart, then so be it. John is straightforward; he says that you must live as Jesus did, else you aren't following Christ but living a lie. And Paul explained it pretty clearly, didn't he in Hebrews 12. You're either sons and daughters or illegitimate children; entitled but denying your birthright.

Actually I am an apostate, and rather proud of the fact. I don't believe that a man named Jesus Christ existed, let alone performed miracles or raised from the dead. But I did believe it for a very long period of time.

faster_jackrabbit · Jul 23, 2006

radorth said:
What sort of proof would convince you? And please be specific.

What kind have you got, besides a book written by men, the existence of the physical universe (possibly created by a god, not necessarily your god), "miracles" with alternative natural causes, and "personal experiences" that take place entirely inside your head?

Please be specific.

Present it and we will decide whether we will believe it or not.

seebs · Jul 23, 2006

radorth said:
I think he did. "If they won't listen to you, shake the dust off your feet," for example, which I don't think many Christians here do actually. The question is whether our motives are merely self-serving- very hard to say. One may judge without being judgemental. But motive is all. You have made several judgemental comments about me personally, one very recently, so if I find your comment a lttle hard to approve, forgive me.

We can judge individual circumstances, although we do not always do so correctly. We can develop reasonably accurate perceptions of many of a person's traits.

We cannot, however, tell whether or not someone is, or was, "really" Christian.

JoeSaebi · Jul 23, 2006

Lanakila said:
Um its not a gift, its a burden. I don't personally believe the Holy Spirit exists, and have challenged Christians to prove it repeatedly on this forum. But, I was sure involved in evangelism as a believer. Even an Evangelism explosion trainer for awhile. I won converts to the Christian faith ect. You can continue to discount my former faith if you like, but at the time it was very real to me, and calling me a liar is offensive.

It is true that we are all called to share the gospel. However, like pastor, and apostle, the office of evangelist is a spiritual gift.

JoeSaebi · Jul 23, 2006

cedDallas said:
What do you think Jesus meant by "Do not Judge" in Matthew 7? How can you claim to know the heart of another? How arrogant! Additionally, in Matthew 7, Jesus says "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

So I ask...is Jesus wrong here? I will attest that I have seeked...WITH ALL MY HEART! I Did and STILL DO ask...DAILY!!! I ask him to show me in scripture the truth about him....but I find more and more to disprove the validity of Christianity. The door has not opened? So I suppose you would dismiss that saying I must not be sincere or that I must not really be serious in my heart. That sir, is exactly the kind of judging we are told not to do! I recommend you read Matthew 7 again.

...and what of sin? I like you, had pursued the Holy Spirit, but I hadn't renounced my chronic sins, nor put away my worship of false idols (like gambling, and pornography, and smoking) Until I did that, the Holy Spirit would have nothing to do with me. Are you putting away your chronic sin? I tell you this, the Holy Spirit will Baptize anyone who seeks and repents sincerely. A pastor could help you as well. Why? Sometimes a pastor can identify abiding sin that is interfering with a believers spiritual life.

JoeSaebi · Jul 23, 2006

cedDallas said:
Agreed. I was the poster child for Christianity when I got saved at 18 and worked in Ministry for 10 years. I know my faith was genuine...I asked Jesus into my heart, and asked for the Holy Spirit to come. But I am still in the midst of questioning my faith. The fact is, Jesus said if I ask for bread, he will not give me a stone, so likewise, I asked for the Holy Spirit and God to lead me to him...but the more I study the scripture the more I find fault with it. Did Jesus lie? Will God really not answer my fervent prayer to show himself to me and stregthen my faith?

All my experiences asside, the question remains....is it true? As I study Judaism and learn more about it as the foundation of Christianity, serious questions come up to the validity of the Christian faith. Now...you cannot argue for the validity based on a metaphicical experience like "The Holy Spirit" because countless world religions can make similar claims basied solely on feelings and you cannot refute something so subjective. To proove or disproove Christianity, it all comes down to it's supposed fullfillment of the Jewish Phrophesies. And the fact remains...if you honestly and unbiosly look at them...Jesus appears not to fit.

I say all that to poit out, ppl do "loose faith" all the time. People with real faith and devotion to God...and often times it comes from an honest study of scripture done to seek him.

Here's a hint; God doesn't go back on his promises. Either you're saved or your not, yes only God knows. Faith doesn't come and go like the wind. Each is given a different measure, true, but it doesn't come one day, gone the next. Whims and beliefs, yes, but faith, and grace are gifts of God.

cedDallas · Jul 23, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
...and what of sin? I like you, had pursued the Holy Spirit, but I hadn't renounced my chronic sins, nor put away my worship of false idols (like gambling, and pornography, and smoking) Until I did that, the Holy Spirit would have nothing to do with me. Are you putting away your chronic sin? I tell you this, the Holy Spirit will Baptize anyone who seeks and repents sincerely. A pastor could help you as well. Why? Sometimes a pastor can identify abiding sin that is interfering with a believers spiritual life.

Of course...that must be it...I must be a sinner then.

Sorry guy...wasnt sin. I didn't cus, drink, smoke, look at porn, I didnt even date or drink. I listened only to Christian music and didnt watch much tv or movies. I went to church EVERY service and worked in ministry that if I could disclose, would floor everyone here that such a skeptic now could come so far from where I was. Beyond that...I did not rely on my own righteousness, but put my faith in Jesus Christ and his righteousness and death for me on the cross, and through my faith, I beleved his righteousness was my way to God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I would love to beleve that it was sin...But as I studied, I found that scripture doesnt add up, and as I learn more about Judaims, I find that Jesus in no way other than being Jewish fits what the old testament said the messiah was to be. Seriously...I challenge you to look into your faith and seek truth. If God is real, then you stand to loose nothing. I recommend www.outreachjudaims.org as a place to start, on the Q&A section.
Remember, Paul described the Bareans as Noble for looking into the validity of the claim that Jesus was the messiah...so you two should look into it. I imagin most Christians wont...because they are afraid they cannot defend their faith. I would challenge you to refute the points made on that site. (but somehow I doubt you will really look into it at all, and much less read it.)

cedDallas · Jul 23, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
Faith doesn't come and go like the wind. Each is given a different measure, true, but it doesn't come one day, gone the next. Whims and beliefs, yes, but faith, and grace are gifts of God.

That is not scriptural in any way. The scripture is full of examples of ppl who faced unbelief and saught God for help with it. Your notion that this doesnt happen is false and cannot be supported scripturally. Mark 9:24 "Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
The fact is you come across as though you have a theology formed devoid of deep scriptural understanding...probably based on your pastors teachings rather than any comprehensive knowlege or understanding on scripture. Now I know you might be asking about in Romans 11, when Paul says "God's gifts and call are irrevocable", but he was speaking of the Jews as a chosen people group, not about individuals.

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
It is true that we are all called to share the gospel. However, like pastor, and apostle, the office of evangelist is a spiritual gift.

Not in the denomination I belonged to, but whatever. The evangelist gift means missionary to most Baptists, and as a mission major in Bible college with a very strong burden for the lost (unbelievers) because I personally believed they would go to hell, I believed I had that gift.

Now I know that I am just a tenderhearted person, who had been taught a doctrine about hell that drove me to witness to almost everyone I met, and to pray without ceasing for my unbeliving family members. I still have a tender heart btw, even as an unbelieving heathen athiest.

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
...and what of sin? I like you, had pursued the Holy Spirit, but I hadn't renounced my chronic sins, nor put away my worship of false idols (like gambling, and pornography, and smoking) Until I did that, the Holy Spirit would have nothing to do with me. Are you putting away your chronic sin? I tell you this, the Holy Spirit will Baptize anyone who seeks and repents sincerely. A pastor could help you as well. Why? Sometimes a pastor can identify abiding sin that is interfering with a believers spiritual life.

But, but, but what of the sin of judging others, or gluttony, or gossip, or coveting, or lack of trust in God, or many other pet sins? Christians judge the outward appearance, but God (supposedly) looks on the heart. In other words, those outward things are just the beginning.

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

JoeSaebi said:
Here's a hint; God doesn't go back on his promises. Either you're saved or your not, yes only God knows. Faith doesn't come and go like the wind. Each is given a different measure, true, but it doesn't come one day, gone the next. Whims and beliefs, yes, but faith, and grace are gifts of God.

But, what if its all a make believe game? What if God really doesn't exist, and when you discover that, you lose faith. Because it would be stupid to believe in someone/something that doesn't exist.

JoeSaebi · Jul 24, 2006

Lanakila said:
But, what if its all a make believe game? What if God really doesn't exist, and when you discover that, you lose faith. Because it would be stupid to believe in someone/something that doesn't exist.

Then you didn't have any faith to begin with (its like a seed, see mustard seed parable).

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

Believe what you want. I did have faith, I did follow Jesus whom I thought to be God's own son. NOw I don't. Why don't you join our debate in the other thread about deconversion?

JoeSaebi · Jul 24, 2006

Lanakila said:
Not in the denomination I belonged to, but whatever. The evangelist gift means missionary to most Baptists, and as a mission major in Bible college with a very strong burden for the lost (unbelievers) because I personally believed they would go to hell, I believed I had that gift.

Now I know that I am just a tenderhearted person, who had been taught a doctrine about hell that drove me to witness to almost everyone I met, and to pray without ceasing for my unbeliving family members. I still have a tender heart btw, even as an unbelieving heathen athiest.

My father in law is a Baptist minister. Of course, they don't believe in (or generally experience the Baptism of the Holy Spirit). This is a huge doctrinal error and spiritually limiting belief. Now I don't want WWIII over stating a denominational error in GA but hey, I think it could make a huge difference to you. I experience the same doctrinal error in the Protestant church as well as Methodist. The problem; they, in general don't become spirit filled; that is, the Holy Spirit doesn't Baptise them (immerse, or fill). It is the difference between say, having a drop of water, and drinking til full.

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

They would say you are in doctrinal error for pretending to practice a gift that ceased. This is not a debate for GA. I didn't deconvert because I didn't speak in tongues, and I have fellow deconverted friends that are former charismatics, that can still speak in tongues, although they lack faith, and belief.

JoeSaebi · Jul 24, 2006

Lanakila said:
They would say you are in doctrinal error for pretending to practice a gift that ceased. This is not a debate for GA. I didn't deconvert because I didn't speak in tongues, and I have fellow deconverted friends that are former charismatics, that can still speak in tongues, although they lack faith, and belief.

Yes, I have one friend I met here, losthope who says that he spake in tongues and still has no faith. I don't necessarily discount this as we are primarily spiritual beings. But I tell you this now, I suspect you are like the seed that was snatched by the bird in the parable of the seed and the sower.

Lanakila · Jul 24, 2006

I believe that the whole parable is just a nice little story that has no basis in reality. Your faith has to be in something that is real, and somewhat testable, or its in vain imo. I can't believe in something as obviously fallicious as Christianity any more. Not only is the evidence lacking and circular, what is there disproves it beyond a doubt..

JoeSaebi · Jul 24, 2006

Lanakila said:
I believe that the whole parable is just a nice little story that has no basis in reality. Your faith has to be in something that is real, and somewhat testable, or its in vain imo. I can't believe in something as obviously fallicious as Christianity any more. Not only is the evidence lacking and circular, what is there disproves it beyond a doubt..

Often, the enemy's deceptions are binding, especially when coupled with chronic sin. Did you repent of your sins--that is, did you, make every effort to turn from sin, including not so obvious inward sins (like lust, pride, etc.). Frankly, I'm not really trying to pry into your life, hoping you'll see that you can't escape the bondage of the enemy unless you repent and plead the blood, the forgiving power of Jesus. I personally can attest to having asked forgiveness, asked for Jesus to forgive, asked God to touch me, but still was enslaved to chronic sin. Thus, the Holy Spirit would not fill me until I turned from these bondages and ran to the Lord ! Praise God, He will accept us with open arms!

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 24, 2006

Lanakila said:
Not in the denomination I belonged to, but whatever. The evangelist gift means missionary to most Baptists, and as a mission major in Bible college with a very strong burden for the lost (unbelievers) because I personally believed they would go to hell, I believed I had that gift.

Now I know that I am just a tenderhearted person, who had been taught a doctrine about hell that drove me to witness to almost everyone I met, and to pray without ceasing for my unbeliving family members. I still have a tender heart btw, even as an unbelieving heathen athiest.

And that is how you will be being judged by God, whether christian or not.

Sorry to see you got into the False doctrine of eternal "Hellfire". The book of Revelation answers so many mysteries of the Bible, but like most of the Bible, it is written in metaphorical symbolic language.
You will be ok and keep being "tender hearted" as you are.

Discussion with a Literalist KJV christian:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3177030-authority-of-kjv-split-from-ce-forum.html

These are a different group than the ones first "standing" at the "White Throne', as those were not "raised" like these being judged by their "works">

reve 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

Evangelists arrested at 'Gay Games'

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