Eternal life, a disposition of the mind...

k4c · Apr 4, 2011

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I have been thinking about this for several years now but I haven't had a chance to do a deep study on it so I'm just going to present my thoughts here to see what the people of God think.

It seems to me that eternal life is not so much in not sinning as much as it is how we understand God's true character when we sin.

It seems to me that sin causes death, not God. How sin gets its power to kill is when we believe God is condemning us when we sin.

When Adam and Eve sinned their whole understanding of God changed. They feared Him and hid from Him all the while God was just walking in the garden in the cool of the day.

In the new covenant God tells us that we are no longer under the Law. The Law has no power over us. What does the Law do? It brings death and condemnation through sin. God tells us that since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world the Law has no power to bring condemnation.

How sin kills is when we think God is condemning us when we sin. This causes a death within us that is not coming from God or the Law. Why is this? Because sin, in itself, brings guilt and shame but if we know the true character of God we can overcome the false impressions sin can leave within our minds that causes us to fear God and hide from Him.

This is what Galatians is talking about when it says, "If we try to be justified by the Law we will die." Why is this? Because who can keep the Law? No one. So what happens when we try to be justified by keeping the Law? When we sin, that sin brings death? Why? Because our mindset of God is based on Him accepting us based on us keeping the Law. In this, we give power to sin to kill us and authority to Satan to accuse us, when God is not. This is a battle that is taking place within the mind and determins our veiw of God and forms the dispostion of our mind.

It's not that the Law is done away with. It still has valuse for the abundant life and goodness but it's authority to bring condemnation when we fall has been disarmed.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Is eternal life based on our understanding God's true character?

Once we undertand God's true character, as seen in His name, which Jesus revealed to us, this will bring about internal healing from guilt, shame and striving to be excepted by God ie: eternal life.

Jesus understood the Father and revealed Him to us because the Father was in Christ. This is why we are called to have the mind of Christ. His dispostion of how He understood the Father's character.

This is why God's task is to write His name in our foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

How we view what God thinks of us will produce a mindset within us that is free from death and condemnation. This is eternal life, to know the Father and Jesus Christ who revealed Him.

I have much more to say but I want to get some imput from you guys.

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 4, 2011

Thanx to brother Herb, I am coming to understand this shift of focus we need to have in order to know the true character of God. He has already forgiven us through the finished work of the cross... we just need to accept it.

Joe67 · Apr 4, 2011

Rom 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. KJV

When we are dead to the law of human reproduction and its necessities, then sin does not have dominion over us. Then we will be in the image of the son of man, who did not have a place to lay his head.

Gen 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. KJV

We cannot be dead to this law by taking a vow of poverty and celibacy.

The other people want the same space and improvements and authority for their people which they have begotten.

Resurrection unto a spiritual body does not need space and improvements and human authority.

Phil 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, KJV

Joe

Servant of the Lord · Apr 4, 2011

I am also studying this subject now too and reading this thread reminds me of a few verses. Allow me to share,

James 1:13-15
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

And another one,

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

From these passages we can clearly see that the result of sin is death. Sin produces death. God's plan of salvation has always been to rescue us from sin, not from his wrath. His wrath, however, comes as the result of people rejecting his grace and clinging to their sin. Sin is defined for us in the law (1 John 3:4). If we had no law, we would not realize our true condition. The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

Furthermore, we know that God is love (1 John 4:8), and the precepts for love towards God and love for man are found in the moral law; The Ten Commandments. The Lord said "if ye love me, Keep my Commandments" (John 14:15) I heard that in the Greek it actually says, "If ye love me, you will keep my Commandments." I would appreciate it if anybody could verify that for me..

Now I am beginning to see the law more like promises rather than Commandments. Did Herb mention anything like that in his series? That would tie in with our belief that true faith produces fruits/obedience to the law (Sanctification).

God's plan of salvation was to save us from the sin which naturally separated us from a Holy God. Therefore, sin is our enemy, and not God's law that points out our sin.

That's all I have for now.

SotL

k4c · Apr 4, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Thanx to brother Herb, I am coming to understand this shift of focus we need to have in order to know the true character of God. He has already forgiven us through the finished work of the cross... we just need to accept it.

Yes, Herb brought some things back to memory so I thought I would open it up for discussion.

He makes a couple of statements that he doesn't clarify.

It seems like he believes in once saved always saved.

It also seems that he believes that God wouldn't kill people.

What are your thoughts?

k4c · Apr 4, 2011

Servant of the Lord said:
I am also studying this subject now too and reading this thread reminds me of a few verses. Allow me to share,

James 1:13-15
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

And another one,

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

From these passages we can clearly see that the result of sin is death. Sin produces death. God's plan of salvation has always been to rescue us from sin, not from his wrath. His wrath, however, comes as the result of people rejecting his grace and clinging to their sin. Sin is defined for us in the law (1 John 3:4). If we had no law, we would not realize our true condition. The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).

Furthermore, we know that God is love (1 John 4:8), and the precepts for love towards God and love for man are found in the moral law; The Ten Commandments. The Lord said "if ye love me, Keep my Commandments" (John 14:15) I heard that in the Greek it actually says, "If ye love me, you will keep my Commandments." I would appreciate it if anybody could verify that for me..

Now I am beginning to see the law more like promises rather than Commandments. Did Herb mention anything like that in his series? That would tie in with our belief that true faith produces fruits/obedience to the law (Sanctification).

God's plan of salvation was to save us from the sin which naturally separated us from a Holy God. Therefore, sin is our enemy, and not God's law that points out our sin.

That's all I have for now.

SotL

You make some good points.

Let me shine a little light with a story.

A man goes to the doctor because every time he drinks coffee he gets a burning pain in stomach. The doctor performs a test that shows the coffee is causing of ulsa. The doctor prescribes medication that will clear up the ulsa and the doctor tells the man to stop drinking coffee. Now the man refuses the medication and says test has no value and to stop brinking coffee is legalism. It seems to me that the doctor is only trying to help the man.

k4c · Apr 4, 2011

If our past, present, and future sins are already forgiven then why does God say if we don't forgive others neither will He forgive us?

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 4, 2011

k4c said:
Yes, Herb brought some things back to memory so I thought I would open it up for discussion.

He makes a couple of statements that he doesn't clarify.

It seems like he believes in once saved always saved.

It also seems that he believes that God wouldn't kill people.

What are your thoughts?

I haven't heard that he believes in 'once saved, always saved' in his presentations... but he does use this analogy that I think is very thought provoking for our own view of God and how we relate to Him...

He said, 'if God were to appear to us today and personaly say that from now on, no matter what you do, you are saved... that your salvation was sure.... once saved always saved...

...would anything in your life change?'

As far as if he thinks that God wouldn't kill people, I think his premise, and I tend to agree, that it is only sin that kills. It is what crushed out the life of Jesus... it is the reason for every death from Able onward.

Yes, I know the stories of the OT when God seemed to be the originator of death, but if sin never existed, would He have had to execute what is called His strange act? God is in the business or creating not destroying... I think Satan gains the upper hand when we atribute anything but love to God. It's his goal to represent God as cruel and vindictive. Our mission is to properly represent the true character of God. That is what will win people to Him... that is the reformation needed in our church and to the world.

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 4, 2011

k4c said:
If our past, present, and future sins are already forgiven then why does God say if we don't forgive others neither will He forgive us?

If you won't forgive others then there is still sin in your heart and therefore you can't partake of the free gift of being forgiven. Foregiveness is only for the repentent, the wicked have no claim to it exept through confession and contrition.

k4c · Apr 5, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
If you won't forgive others then there is still sin in your heart and therefore you can't partake of the free gift of being forgiven. Foregiveness is only for the repentent, the wicked have no claim to it exept through confession and contrition.

Interesting...this puts a whole new spin on things. I will have to look deeper.

k4c · Apr 5, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
I haven't heard that he believes in 'once saved, always saved' in his presentations... but he does use this analogy that I think is very thought provoking for our own view of God and how we relate to Him...

He said, 'if God were to appear to us today and personaly say that from now on, no matter what you do, you are saved... that your salvation was sure.... once saved always saved...

...would anything in your life change?'

As far as if he thinks that God wouldn't kill people, I think his premise, and I tend to agree, that it is only sin that kills. It is what crushed out the life of Jesus... it is the reason for every death from Able onward.

Yes, I know the stories of the OT when God seemed to be the originator of death, but if sin never existed, would He have had to execute what is called His strange act? God is in the business or creating not destroying... I think Satan gains the upper hand when we atribute anything but love to God. It's his goal to represent God as cruel and vindictive. Our mission is to properly represent the true character of God. That is what will win people to Him... that is the reformation needed in our church and to the world.

I'm not sure if I can go as far as to say God does not kill people, even if it's a strange thing for Him to do.

Joe67 · Apr 5, 2011

1 Cor 4:6
that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. KJV

1 Cor 14:32
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. KJV

Rev 20:9-10
and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. KJV

Joe

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 5, 2011

k4c said:
I'm not sure if I can go as far as to say God does not kill people, even if it's a strange thing for Him to do.

Think about it though... did God kill them or did sin? God may have removed His blessing of life but it was the fault of sin.

Herb asked another great question of the audience... do we deserve God's reproofs and corrections when we sin? He asked it two or three times as people were more emphatically saying yes... he said NOOO!, we deserve death! The very fact that we are still breathing, being sinners, is because of God's Mercy. The reason Adam and Eve weren't killed immediately after eating the forbidden fruit and the reason why each of us weren't killed after our first sin was because of Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. He plead for mercy on behalf of mankind and said 'give them a chance to repent and to know me.'

No, God doesn't kill, He has done everything possible to ensure we have a chance of life.

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 5, 2011

Joe brings up a good point about Isaiah 28:21

For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

This strange act of God's is not the first death of man but the second death executed against the wicked outside the city.

k4c · Apr 5, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Think about it though... did God kill them or did sin? God may have removed His blessing of life but it was the fault of sin.

Herb asked another great question of the audience... do we deserve God's reproofs and corrections when we sin? He asked it two or three times as people were more emphatically saying yes... he said NOOO!, we deserve death! The very fact that we are still breathing, being sinners, is because of God's Mercy. The reason Adam and Eve weren't killed immediately after eating the forbidden fruit and the reason why each of us weren't killed after our first sin was because of Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. He plead for mercy on behalf of mankind and said 'give them a chance to repent and to know me.'

No, God doesn't kill, He has done everything possible to ensure we have a chance of life.

What of the men, woman, children and even animals that God killed or ordered to be killed all throughout the OT? Men such as Uzza who touched the ark and God killed him and Aaron's sons who brought in strange incense. I have no problem believing to the point that I even desire to believe that God does not kill but it has to be proven to me through the scriptures in a way that's understandable and clear and not based only on a warm fuzzy feeling.

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 5, 2011

k4c said:
I have no problem believing to the point that I even desire to believe that God does not kill but it has to be proven to me through the scriptures in a way that's understandable and clear and not based only on a warm fuzzy feeling.

Absolutely...

This how I see it... I'll try not to get all warm and fuzzy...lol

I'm not sure if this subject can be soley supported by scripture. I believe that the Holy Spirit lays upon our seeking hearts the view of God's character and then, looking at events that we do not understand with this lense, they become clearer to us. I know it's not sola scriptura, but it is how I have come to understand the way in which the Israelites were instructed and why violence was so prevelent.

We need to begin by realizing that from Adam, down through the generations, mans spiritual discernment was decreasing and carnal mindness was increasing. We can see the holiness of Enoch and the faith of Noah but immediately after the flood, sin caused the world to split into two lines each tainted by this sin. When we come down to Abraham, there was indeed a people that were still worshipped God through the line of Seth, but they were influenced and living among idolators. That is the reason God took Abram out of Ur into the wilderness, to allow his discernment to increase so that he could be used of God. We read how his faith was tried and how he fell short with yet another line of idolotrous people the result. It is interesting, that when God asked Abraham to take and sacrifice Isaac, that he did it so willingly. We have always attributed that to Abrahams trust and obedience but we can't neglect the historical and cultural aspect. At this time, we are told that it was common practice for the idolatrous nations to sacrifice their children to their gods. Abraham grew up amongst this belief and so, it is possible that part of his willingness to sacrifice his child to his God was as much cultural as much as faith and obedience. As the history continues, we see Gods' people commiting sins and paying the price til we come to the 12 tribes living down amongst the idolators once again, having lost almost all that God had tried to instill throughout the generations to that time. We have the narrative of the difficulty that the Israelites had in obeying God, even when His power was continually displayed before them. They were spiritually blind at this point and needed constant correction by God through Moses to barely stay on course. The rule of the land at this point was warfare and violence. It is what the people understood and responded to. They were not able to, as Noah had been, to accept the sure Word of the Lord as their only foundation. God could not deal with them the same... He had to meet them where they were. This is the reason why violence and death were such a large part of their journey as a people. It's what they knew and through it, God sought to bring them up from their fallen condition to where they would understand His true character of Love and Mercy. That is why God required them to execute judgement upon their own people when they had sinned. To teach them the consequences of sin. But to do it in a way that would be meaningful to them. If God had of caused the people to die because of their sin, the people would have misunderstood it and not been drawn closer to God but away in fear. It would not have shown God's true character to them. We can see this principle when Moses was pleading for the lives of the Israelites, saying to God that the nations around would use it to bring dishonour to God. Of course, there were individual incidents where sin was dealt with by death... Aarons sons being one example. Once again to show the people, in a way they understood, the concequences of being disobedient. As God's people continued, the way of punishment was less severe, causing them to be made captives of the heathen nations etc. This was because they were becoming a bit more spiritually minded and the level of violence and death that was the law of the land up until Solomon, was starting to be replaced by oppression and bondage.

The same principle applies when raising children..when they are young, we must respond to their bad behaviour in a way that they will understand. Trying to negotiate with a 2 year old does not work but a loving physical correction does have its effect. As the children get older and are more able to understand consequences for actions, withholding priviledges is a better way of correcting them. Both are done in love for the child.

I know this a rather lengthy, rambling post so please if you have any questions on a specific part, ask away and I'll try and explain it better with actual Biblical quotes.

k4c · Apr 5, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Absolutely...

This how I see it... I'll try not to get all warm and fuzzy...lol

I'm not sure if this subject can be soley supported by scripture. I believe that the Holy Spirit lays upon our seeking hearts the view of God's character and then, looking at events that we do not understand with this lense, they become clearer to us. I know it's not sola scriptura, but it is how I have come to understand the way in which the Israelites were instructed and why violence was so prevelent.

We need to begin by realizing that from Adam, down through the generations, mans spiritual discernment was decreasing and carnal mindness was increasing. We can see the holiness of Enoch and the faith of Noah but immediately after the flood, sin caused the world to split into two lines each tainted by this sin. When we come down to Abraham, there was indeed a people that were still worshipped God through the line of Seth, but they were influenced and living among idolators. That is the reason God took Abram out of Ur into the wilderness, to allow his discernment to increase so that he could be used of God. We read how his faith was tried and how he fell short with yet another line of idolotrous people the result. It is interesting, that when God asked Abraham to take and sacrifice Isaac, that he did it so willingly. We have always attributed that to Abrahams trust and obedience but we can't neglect the historical and cultural aspect. At this time, we are told that it was common practice for the idolatrous nations to sacrifice their children to their gods. Abraham grew up amongst this belief and so, it is possible that part of his willingness to sacrifice his child to his God was as much cultural as much as faith and obedience. As the history continues, we see Gods' people commiting sins and paying the price til we come to the 12 tribes living down amongst the idolators once again, having lost almost all that God had tried to instill throughout the generations to that time. We have the narrative of the difficulty that the Israelites had in obeying God, even when His power was continually displayed before them. They were spiritually blind at this point and needed constant correction by God through Moses to barely stay on course. The rule of the land at this point was warfare and violence. It is what the people understood and responded to. They were not able to, as Noah had been, to accept the sure Word of the Lord as their only foundation. God could not deal with them the same... He had to meet them where they were. This is the reason why violence and death were such a large part of their journey as a people. It's what they knew and through it, God sought to bring them up from their fallen condition to where they would understand His true character of Love and Mercy. That is why God required them to execute judgement upon their own people when they had sinned. To teach them the consequences of sin. But to do it in a way that would be meaningful to them. If God had of caused the people to die because of their sin, the people would have misunderstood it and not been drawn closer to God but away in fear. It would not have shown God's true character to them. We can see this principle when Moses was pleading for the lives of the Israelites, saying to God that the nations around would use it to bring dishonour to God. Of course, there were individual incidents where sin was dealt with by death... Aarons sons being one example. Once again to show the people, in a way they understood, the concequences of being disobedient. As God's people continued, the way of punishment was less severe, causing them to be made captives of the heathen nations etc. This was because they were becoming a bit more spiritually minded and the level of violence and death that was the law of the land up until Solomon, was starting to be replaced by oppression and bondage.

The same principle applies when raising children..when they are young, we must respond to their bad behaviour in a way that they will understand. Trying to negotiate with a 2 year old does not work but a loving physical correction does have its effect. As the children get older and are more able to understand consequences for actions, withholding priviledges is a better way of correcting them. Both are done in love for the child.

I know this a rather lengthy, rambling post so please if you have any questions on a specific part, ask away and I'll try and explain it better with actual Biblical quotes.

These are some good thoughts but... if were gonna say that God doesn't kill people even with all the Scripture that says He does we're gonna need clear biblical proof as to why or how He killed them. We know God is the same yesterday today and forever and he changes not. This means that if God is righteous He is always rightous and if He is just He is always just and if He's love He is always love. Can these eternal attributes of God express themselves differently depending on the situation, point in time and the fact that God knows the beginning from the end?

EastCoastRemnant · Apr 5, 2011

I'm not going to be able to help you past this brother...

I pray that the Holy Spirit lead into this understanding so that you can stand firm in it.

It is, for me, a unquestionable belief of who God is. I may not understand all there is to know about why things happened the way they did but I know that my God is not a destroyer... Satan is. Thank you for posting the quote from Hebrews 13:8. It further convicts me that God's character is pure and good an holy.

k4c · Apr 6, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
I'm not going to be able to help you past this brother...

I pray that the Holy Spirit lead into this understanding so that you can stand firm in it.

It is, for me, a unquestionable belief of who God is. I may not understand all there is to know about why things happened the way they did but I know that my God is not a destroyer... Satan is. Thank you for posting the quote from Hebrews 13:8. It further convicts me that God's character is pure and good an holy.

That's it!!! WOW!!! We'll spend hundreds of posts and just as many verses trying to convince people of the Sabbath but when it comes to the character of God we only give a short story and that's it.

The question that we need to answer, without warm fuzzy emotions guiding us is this. Does God kill?

If I were to ask the family of Uzza or if I spoke with Aaron what kind of answer would they give?

Believing that God does not kill is a beautiful thing but if we can't prove it or at least justifiy it in light of God's love then how can we teach it?

If it's true, then I say we study and make it known through Scripture.

k4c · Apr 6, 2011

If the character of God is love and eternal life is influenced by how we understand God's character then we must understand why God kills in such a away that won't harden or distort our understanding of God's loving character. This is what we need to study and make sense of by using Scripture.

You know, justice is not always sweet and satisfying to all parties involved because someone is alway hurt in the process but that hurt shouldn't come from justice, it has to come from the action that caused the need for justice. To accomplish this all we need is a correct understanding of the motive and character of God.

Eternal life, a disposition of the mind...

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